The Future in Movies with Perception - 80 Level Round Table

Perception leaders Danny Gonzalez and Jeremy Lasky share how the company creates visions of the future for some of the world's biggest film studios. We've talked about their work with Marvel, production, design, inspiration, and also projects, where sci-fi film know-how helps improve real-world businesses.

Perception Website: https://www.experienceperception.com/
Film Case Studies: https://www.experienceperception.com/filmwork.html 
Perception YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Perceptionnyc/featured   

Danny Gonzalez is the Co-Founder of Perception
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danny-gonzalez-9090522/
Jeremy Lasky is the Co-Founder of Perception
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremylasky/

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Transcript

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us today uh we have an usual uh couple of guests um it's uh danny gonzalez and

jeremy lasky from perception vfx this is

an unusual studio they create interfaces for

all kind of sci-fi movies so they did a bunch of fictional interfaces for marvel films

and they are using that experience to create data visualization technologies for the real

businesses i'm sure you enjoy our today's conversation

greetings and welcome to the 80 level roundtable podcast in each episode host

kiril tokorev invites video game industry leaders to talk about the world of game development no topic is off

limits as long as it relates to video game development new episodes are in the works so remember to follow us or

subscribe and share with someone you know will also enjoy the podcast

thank you so much for joining me today and uh today we have with us uh darren gonzalez and jeremy lasky from

perception vfx and we're going to talk a little bit about some of the amazing things that they're doing

so but before we kind of uh go into uh the nitty-gritty can you guys do like

a little introduction tell a little bit about yourself and uh how did uh perception vfx come to be uh my name is

danny gonzalez i'm co-founder of perception i'll give you a little bit of my

background i i went to school for business i thought i was going to take over my father's restaurant

so that was kind of the plan for my future my senior year of college i took a

special effects class to finish with you know cred enough credits to graduate and fell in love with it and from uh

then on out i uh i started to pursue a career in visual

effects i had an opportunity to become a production assistant at rga which was a

studio where i met jeremy but it was the one studio in manhattan that was doing all these great visual effects for

films and commercials and they were working on the greatest um uh you know they would work on the biggest and and and baddest commercials

like for the super bowl and just the really really interesting ones and uh that had a lot of 3d and back in the

mid 90s when i was there that was pretty big deal um [Music]

and um worked there as a pa for i don't know eight months or so

i was assistant to bob greenberg who was uh to this day one of my uh

my mentors and teacher and um worked my way up to uh visual effects artists

in 2001 they decided to switch gears at rga become more of a a dot-com company

than a studio so they close the studio doors and that's when jeremy and i started talking about opening up our own studio

with all the possibilities of what you can do on the desktop the technology was growing so quickly um

and we opened up perception in 2001. so i'll pause there and let jeremy

that's mine in a very quick nutshell uh my name is jeremy lasky i'm danny's

partner and the other co-founder of perception uh i went to college originally to be an

architect uh at carnegie mellon but then soon realized that that wasn't the path for me

and i transferred into the graphic design program at cmu and over my years there i was introduced

to title sequence design as a as a focus as a discipline and this

is back in the early to mid 90s when film title sequences weren't as well

known and um and appreciated as they are today um i had a professor in my junior year that

had a collection of some of the greatest and most iconic title sequences

of all time saul bass's work uh from all the hitchcock films a lot of the james bond title sequences

and he also had a a collection of title sequences from a company in new york

called our greenberg associates or rga um and rga as danny mentioned was a

legendary place uh for film work and specifically title sequences they really became one of the

uh the greatest and most recognized companies in the world that did them um

starting with the original superman titles from 1978 which they had done

all the way through the mid-90s uh the film seven which had a really uh groundbreaking title sequence they just

did hundreds and hundreds of titles throughout the decades um so i was introduced to their work as i said in

my college years and that really uh lit a fire in me uh as something that i wanted to pursue uh post-graduation

um so i got very lucky uh timing was right and i ended up getting my first

job out of college at rga in new york um whole other story of how that happened which i'll save for another day

um but that's where i met danny uh the two of us worked together at rga for uh

i was there from 95 to 2000 uh so a little over five years um danny

was there a little before me and and stayed on a little after me and as he mentioned uh rga changed their whole

studio model um which was exactly the motivation and and kind of kick

that uh that we needed to uh to start our own thing you know we both loved rga so much it was a great

uh place for us to learn and grow and honestly never really thought i would leave that place when i was there and

everything was going really well and i was doing film work and television work and i mean

it does it didn't get better than that for me um so when they uh when they told everyone what the plans

were and going back to the late 90s and early 2000s uh your listeners should remember that

that was the you know the dot-com boom everything was kind of going.com everything was going you know startups

and pre-ipos and everybody wanted to be an internet millionaire overnight um

so the you know the the paradigm was really shifting in the design industry at that time and rga um was right on the

you know the crest of that wave um and they were very successful at unlike a lot of companies that obviously

um uh bombed out after uh 2000 2001

um but it pushed us out the door um we could have stayed on to work on websites

and broadband work um but uh my love was film and television uh animation visual effects

um so danny uh uh and i decided we were gonna take the plunge

um we had also started dabbling a little bit in digital video at the time the two of us took a couple of workshops and

seminars and dv which was another big thing back then like digital video you

know getting a uh little mini dv tapes and being able to produce you know high-end or so-called

high-end broadcast work on a budget uh was revolutionary you know final cut pro was uh pretty new at

the time so for under a thousand dollars you were able to edit uh

and and compete with uh avid's uh which were many times that price

after effects and other adobe software uh was really getting better and better um which allowed us to do motion

graphics and animation on desktop computers uh at a fraction of the cost of what we used to use um danny was

using things called flames and infernos at rga which uh cost tens of thousands of dollars to uh to buy or lease however

that was uh uh done at the time so things were really you know happening in the industry uh that we were taking

very close note of um and that kind of allowed us to recognize that there was a viable

business model here where we could um make a much more cost effective studio

uh to do television and film work um without having to have this insane uh

you know backing uh financial backing that large uh and upscale studios like

rga had um so that led us to incorporate in the

fall of 2001 we signed the papers in danny's kitchen um it was november this was two months

right after 9 11. uh you know obviously we had made our decision months and months ahead of the

day we signed the papers so you know once that momentum started it never stopped

but it was certainly a challenging and scary time in new york in the world

in the economy uh but it uh it didn't it didn't sway us and we moved forward

so guys uh thank you so much for this introduction uh i think it's very inspirational for most of our readers

who are in majority of cases afraid to do the plunge kind of in the unknown

but my question is about the things that you're doing now and um i'm sure you can tell a better story

about that but i'm wondering if there is any any bridge like between these

title sequences that you were kind of infatuated with and where it helped design

and the things that you're doing right now is there any connection at all like does building all the way like the

texts at the beginning arrive and how they capture the items does it have to do anything with

kind of architecting and creating this future of visualizations data designs and so on

well i mean what it what what they have in common uh first and foremost is storytelling you know

everything that we do with perception whether it's for a film or for a technology client is all about telling

a story creating a compelling narrative now obviously film title sequences

do that the best of them do it really really well take you on a journey whether it's at

the beginning of a film uh to set up what that film might be about you know we've done some opening titles like

black widow which have to tell a backstory to lead the viewer into the movie they're about to watch or in

most cases these days uh our titles are at the end of a movie also known as main on end title

sequences and those oftentimes will uh will will function as sort of like a callback

uh to some of the best moments in the film um some of the great uh scenes that we just

watched uh maybe uh using some of the uh design language and

thematic uh devices that were playing out throughout the film we might bring back into a title sequence at the end um to

really you know leave leave the audience uh with a certain feeling and a certain mood coming out of the film whether it's

an upbeat mood or a somber mood or a bittersweet mood as we did with endgame

you know and we had to kind of say goodbye to all of these characters um so you know each title sequence is

designed very carefully with uh with that idea of what's the what's the tone what's the

mood what's the story that we're trying to tell and then i'll let danny talk about the technology work and the storytelling

that goes into that sure so um a lot of what we do in the films

attracts all these technology or i should say engineers or people that that work in

these technology companies um a lot of them happen to be marvel fans so that's a that's a bonus for us but um

they go see the films and they connect their dots as far as the types of technologies that

we're uh designing in these movies can somehow be real within the next you

know three to five years and they might be working on something that's actually within the realm of what we designed for

the films and then they call us and say hey look we're kind of working on something like that it's not gonna come out in two years it's gonna come out in

five but we'd love to collaborate with you guys and your team to design

this product that we're presenting to the public in you know in the year 2026

um but we want it to look cool because the you know the

the program or the back end that's running it is is very strong but the look of it and a lot of these companies

because they're very uh heavy on the engineering side um

don't necessarily worry about the design and a lot of the times that's what hurts

uh these technologies you know they can be great but if people don't want to use them or if you don't create a a great user experience

at the same time nobody's really going to want to you know use them so um

they reach out to us we try to make it look as cool as possible as if tony stark is designing it or someone uh you know someone of

that uh of that mind and um and that's how we end up working with

those uh projects so i have a kind of like a full question

on that so we had a professor at ucla and

she did like this talk about how companies uh not still i get inspired by

each other's activities and there uh one of the examples that they were saying is

um there was like this uh company who created uh concrete like they had cement and they

had to deliver it to like construction sites and uh they wanted to innovate and

this is like the least innovative thing that there is but they had this

problem where they need to figure out how to deliver this stuff faster and in order they looked at their

competition nobody was doing that everybody was struggling with this and they started to look at other industries

and eventually they figured out that the the companies that are doing

very well with quick deliveries are pizza companies who are basically delivering pizza and they

figured out how they work and they went to those you know like dominoes and all the

others and try to understand how their logistics work and so on they integrated some of those

techniques in their own business and became hugely successful one of the most innovative company of like year i don't

remember what but i'm telling the story with with a question in mind so

when you're building these interfaces when you're thinking about this future

that you're creating both for like technological companies and just for movies

uh where do you look for inspiration does this come from the interfaces that

already exist does this come from just sketches that the artists are making are

you looking for the future in the reality around us

or is this something that just pops to your mind and you're putting this on paper the films i mean it's it's it all

comes back to uh the the story and the characters in these films

um the technology that we're creating for these characters have to

they have to support whatever that scene is about they have to really showcase this

character's technology and innovation and in some cases their personality when we're designing

uh tony stark's technology it's very different than when we're designing nick fury's technology or jane foster's

technology or spider-man's technology everybody's tech has to be some sort of reflection of who they are

um their their own level of innovation and their own resources right obviously tony

stark has unlimited resources and and funds and he can create you know whatever whatever uh

money can buy um whereas someone like uh uh jane foster who we designed the tech four in

thor two you know her her attack was was was very innovative but it was more um scrappy

you know pieces of uh radio shack parts and uh duct tape uh put together to create her uh her

devices um when we're designing for shield it's more about you know the utilitarian aspect of it it feels more

like military and mission critical and you know it's not as flourishy and artistic and

impressionistic as you know tony stark's and then with wakanda which was which we

got to do uh you know in 2018 we were tasked with coming up with something that went beyond tony stark and was a

whole other level something that we hadn't seen before but the you know part of that assignment was

how can we pull from the culture of wakanda and fortunately

marvel had a uh had a bible that they were working on a production bible for wakanda it was like 500 plus pages that

outlined all of the clothing and the transportation and the the traditions of wakanda the

different um uh architecture of wakanda uh colors patterns textiles all of these materials

that they had already sort of thought through and were part of that world that they

were building we were able to use his inspiration for the technology of wakanda that we were asked to uh

brainstorm on um so that's a huge part of the inspiration is taking all the the raw materials that the filmmakers and

the writers and the production designers have already thought through for these films and these characters and using

that as our launching pad into the into the technology and then of course it's what does the scene have to convey what

are they using this phone for what are they using this uh interactive mirror for what are they i don't know using

this uh this hologram for and if if we can if we can capture that then we've we've

achieved that goal but if we if we missed that then that's that's a huge miss and that's the most important part

uh it's our most important responsibility is making sure that we're carrying that

story point forward that the audience is following along we're not distracting them with the tech

you know we don't want to be so in your face and take people out of the scene that they forgot

you know what the whole point of the technology was to begin with but we also want to make sure that all

the tech that we create is grounded in some sort of reality and believability and it has some authenticity to it

it's not so far into the future that people won't believe it's possible it's just far enough

that it has some connection with reality and maybe some cutting edge tech that's being developed in a lab or in a

university somewhere that we can pull from and we do a lot of that type of research as well just kind of scouring

the world and seeing what's you know what's in the labs what's in the uh universities right now

that we can maybe use um so all those things are are the places that we draw inspiration from

yeah we actually create um [Music] technology audits for the feature films

depending on what time what what time we we are introduced or what time we brought in for those projects

and they love to hear all the different technologies that we're working with you know with our technology clients and

things like that not that we we share that information because we're not allowed to but there's definitely

some um [Music] uh confidence and of course they understand

that we have the experience in that world and they definitely don't want their the world of black panther or any other

um films to be magical because it's too unbelievable if it's like magic

you know they definitely like jeremy said it needs to be grounded in some sort of uh logic

um so yeah and i think um having as far as inspiration i think having the

the team that we have you know they're they're great design um [Music]

they're great designers but they also have like a like a technology itch or some sort of

um [Music] they just love tech so that's just a bonus

when it comes to us having to research for a film or for um

the technology projects that we have but you mentioned it's funny that you mentioned the cement um project because we had a similar project

that we had to uh find a solution for which was uh a paving company and was this uh you

know the asphalt that they put in the back of the trucks it's heated to a certain temperature and you know when they're driving along in

this um convoy of you know five to ten trucks some trucks slow down they get hit with

traffic and then it throws the temperature off so if you don't pour the or put down the asphalt at a certain

temperature it doesn't it doesn't stay you know it doesn't uh stay strong or you know stay the test of

time and it starts to break up so that was a challenge that we had to come up with you know there's so many

different variables like weather traffic the driver themselves um so we came up with a whole kind of um

application that one person can look at from a master you know control center

and they could see like oh you know truck number five has a flat we gotta go you know send another truck and get that

one back here or whatever it is um so there was a it was an interesting um challenge what that's what they all

come down to is all um design challenges

you know it's not about doing pretty pictures it's about creating something that's beautiful elegant but that works because

if it doesn't work what's the point if it looks beautiful nobody's going to want to look at it anyway

so i have a i have a question like connected with that and uh thank you so much for giving this answer i think that

uh partially you kind of answered my previous question whether and it was um like

does it just have to look cool or does it have to do something like is should be there be some function and

my favorite story about that i think i stole it from mike hill

who's like a designer in movies and games and he gave an example the movie event

horizon like in in event horizons like a sci-fi picture it's about this ship that goes into like

a black hole and everybody goes crazy but um the example that he underlined there is

that in their cockpit like where like the crew was sitting they had this chair for the captain

which was um it was moving with very slowly with some

kind of like a like electric motor or something and every time the person would have to move to see the captain

they would press a button and then it would for like like a minute of the

film or 30 seconds or something painfully slowly would turn and then the kind of the conversation

would continue and so on and his example was that

the chair that was in the movie totally functionally didn't fit because the actor who later

went from this chair he just took because he was so frustrated because he was motorizing this uh

weird furniture he basically took his hand and just swirled it around it was sort of like crazy like on the

where it was installed and my question is like especially when you're doing with film

because i think in in tech it's kind of more utilitarian you still have to there is some business

purpose behind it like but in film how do you make sure that you don't go overboard like when

you know that it's not just christmas lights on a panel but those buttons actually mean

something they do something how do you kind of avoid making them kind of

useless you know what i mean yeah i think that comes with just uh the collaboration with us and the film

companies especially with marvel they know um and and i assume and i hope it's why they

come to us that that it goes back to the storytelling aspect you know we create these elements

with that character in mind whether that person's you know um

the the hero or the villain um there's always something that's that's attached to it you know there's there's always

like a you know background monitor that has something that's just up there it doesn't really make sense because it's blurred out and things like that that

we've done stuff for but whenever something's in focus and whenever something's part of that story

um you know we actually ask like can we get part you know pieces of the script if we don't get to see the movie can we get that scene you know things like that

to kind of give us more information so we can design with with the intent of

you know helping tell that story yeah i would just say that um marvel is

great when it comes to putting our tech designs and screen designs under the microscope and making

sure that everything that we put on those screens and those devices makes sense has a reason to be there has a logic

isn't just background noise or ones and zeros that are put in there for texture everything is there you know sometimes

we're we had easter eggs right because marvel audiences and fans love to find little hidden gems that

uh were put there on purpose um maybe they uh they're they're really well hidden

um but you know we we uh we think that stuff through and uh you know try to try to plant that where

we can um but yeah like danny said it comes down to the storytelling and making sure that everything that we put in there is

there to help move that scene forward or support the dialogue or support whatever

um function that the character is using that piece of text for

whatever the sequence is uh the download sequence or the upload or the hacking sequence or whatever

it happens to be that everything on that screen is is there for that little piece of storytelling

so let me ask you like a a question connected with your previous

answer so you you mentioned that uh people who work with you they love tech

and um i have like a broader question so you've created this business basically

on your own like and you worked in a bigger company and then you built this uh through a number of years

and my question is like what does it take to kind of work for you guys like how do

you find the talent how do you hire like what are

the main things that make you think that this person might fit or maybe things that

immediately say that this is some kind of like a deal breaker and this person is not going to be able to work

with us right i think first and foremost it has to be the right fit uh personality wise you

have to have a very very huge passion for the work

um and you have to be willing to learn as well because no one comes in to percept we don't hire people that have

the skill set already they kind of come to perception because they're a great designer or they do something specific you know

we try to find people with different skill sets um but the main ingredient for us is

that whoever joins the core the perception team has to be a thinker and has to be able to use their mind

to guide these these designs because number one if you can't explain what you're designing to someone who's

you know to a client for a movie or for tech whatever it is i don't you know there's no point so i

think that the the the idea of having the you know the the the the mentality and having the the

the thinking um is key and then again the passion because this day isn't you're gonna be

you know when when it comes to like the last two weeks when you're working on a film why not go home you might be showering

at the studio and that's something that a lot of people do not want to do i mean there's been times jeremy and i worked on

you know we did iron man too it was probably three four weeks i didn't come home and we didn't even have a shower at studio so you didn't want to

know what what i smelled like uh you know after a week or two but um but we figured it out

you know um we never want to you know burn the team out but but there's a certain passion

that you have to have you know that's kind of the rules of engagement for these sort of projects um and i think people like you know it's

great i want to work on films and they come in there and they do it and just like this is not what i thought it was going to be

and we're very you know we're very black and white when when we're trying to find the right team we tell them like it's you know that

sometimes this could be punishing um but but again it goes back to uh trying

to find people that don't have the skill set of the current team

definitely are are great thinkers um and just loves uh finding solutions

to some pretty um hard design problems especially in the tech

you know there's a these companies are coming to us you know we're working with people that have like you know phds and

all these um uh real real um smart people and it's

just uh they're coming to us to find solutions that they can't figure out and i don't have a phd but they come to us

to to seek the expertise to try and figure out how we're going to solve this how can we make this

a moment of delight for for the the people using it or for the you know people in the theater you know

how can we make this special yeah i think uh the the key is uh just

having people that that are bringing something unique and and and special uh to the team that we don't

currently have um it goes beyond uh you know just being able to design an animate

um it goes into um something that's very unique a very special and almost um

uh an intangible quality um that we're you know always excited by

um you know obviously we want people who are talented designers and creatives but

it's that a little little extra something that really helps them uh

uh find a find a seat at perception um you know what danny's referring to is our work ethic we have a crazy work ethic

that i think was uh uh branded into us at rga and rj was

definitely an intense place and that's where we both got our uh our our our butts kicked

uh coming up as as youngins um but that was the culture that we came

up in that's what we saw uh that led to their you know tremendous success

um it was a it was a place that wasn't for everybody and if it wasn't right for

a particular person they they left or they were asked to leave but it sort of like focused it into you

know and i hate to say it like this but an almost elite group um that was there uh at the time and you

know everybody felt like they were special or they were chosen or selected to be there and it created this uh

amazing culture where you know everybody really tried to uh do

their best in order to keep up with their peers because everybody around you was so good and so talented

that you know that that kind of competitive spirit a healthy competitive spirit was a big part of uh my years at

rga and i think that has definitely um carried forward into perception you know

it's something that danny and i are like in our dna now it's in our blood um so i don't even think we think about it

anymore but it's definitely there um you know and perception

uh team members uh have that too and we're very proud of the fact that

our team uh sticks around for a long time you know there's a lot of companies

in our industry where it's more of a revolving door people come and go they they're there

for a few months or maybe a year but that's about it you know we've had people at perception

there for over a decade uh which you know we're both very very proud of i think it's a testament to to

the company the work the team uh you know the opportunities that we get

it's uh it's amazing it's amazing you know we're both very blessed to have to be have

been able to work with such talented people and for such amazing clients and such amazing amazing jobs

um and uh i think that's a big part of it is just having the right team there for the ride

you guys gave some very interesting answers and uh what i heard a lot was like discipline the right mindset

maybe soft skills a little bit of a competition kind of in your heart that you want to do your best job

but like in our audience we have a lot of people who are younger and who are either graduating or

they're doing their first project and one of the questions i hear a lot is

um like what tools do i need to know like uh do i need to know like meijer blender

or zbrush or blah blah blah or something something something and um what's your kind of take on that

like is there some kind of like a magical combination of different

software that you need to know or is it enough to have like you know a pen

and paper and to make sure that you can draw something and explain something like what's your attitude toward that

well i think first off it depends on what the role is that you're you're looking to do i mean obviously if you're

more the project management or producer side of perception you don't really need to know any um

animation software 3d software you need to understand it you need to understand the process and the flow

but you're you're leading a project from uh from production and

uh if you're an artist and you're looking to get into uh the actual animation and the uh the building of

these sequences then yeah for sure cinema 4d after effects the entire adobe suite

actually photoshop illustrator indesign premiere we use all of them for different reasons

um cinema 4d is our bread and butter for 3d we use some houdini we use a little bit

of unreal now we're getting more involved in that for compositing programs like nuke

is indispensable to us um so it really all depends on the role you know if you're just an editor then

you're going to be a master premier if you're a 3d animator then you're going to be the

master at cinema 4d and all the various modules that that you can get into in that world

so uh and um kind of like the last question that i have uh

one of the challenges right now that everybody has especially like in

business is that there is uh too much information

like there is too much data then there's too much information and

to kind of trying to harness some kind of like business intelligence out of all of that becomes more and more

challenging every day and one of the one of the tasks that our 80 level team

has like apart from the 80 level one is trying to figure out to figure that out

and um we're constantly trying to figure out how to visualize that information like

how to show you know what it means like all those zeros and ones and so on

and my question for you guys is since you're kind of in the future

you're trying to create this interfaces both for story but also for like real businesses

what do you think is going to happen in the next like five years like how are we going to look at this information all this data

are we gonna rely on some you know i don't know like vr xr

ar things are we gonna rely more on smartphones or

still kind of be connected with these flat screens that we're we have at home or we're going to have like five

monitors to figure this out like what's your take on that like where what does the future hold in this

direction i think there's going to be a huge um

influence i mean for me personally but i always like to say you know w

we're kind of designing ourselves out of a job because the ultimate interface is the one you don't see and you don't need

to use you know it just knows automatically like you know i get my car it knows it's me it's driving me to work it's take

it's doing everything for me you know um so it's hard to say you know what might

be being used uh five years from now because i feel like i can give you five numbers for the lottery and i'll be

closer with that than i would be with technologies that are going to be out there because from the from when i was at rga in 95

until now and just seeing what i went through with computers and things like that and then seeing like i have a

a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son you know they automatically grew up with the ipads and all that like there's

a huge like explosion of technology

so you know within the next five years is it gonna be multiplied is it gonna be

slowed i don't know i feel like it's just gonna i mean obviously it's gonna advance i just don't know how fast it's gonna go

so i think there's definitely gonna be some ar um you know i i picture

you know someone like myself obviously getting older you know and i wear glasses maybe there's something in the newer glasses that's telling me you know

things you know obviously there's the watches that tell you you know your your health and if you're hiking and you

know it shows you the map of the trail you're on whereas when i went hiking with my father we would have a piece of paper on a map

and we'd probably get lost because my dad was holding it upside down you know so um

history i mean i you know i just think there's going to be definitely a heavy influence in in the ar

and and vr obviously there's the the metaverse um [Music]

who knows where all these uh the the the whole monetary um

um i guess you know uh the the business in that regard with

nfts and bitcoin things like that like there's just so many things that are right now

opening that i'm not sure which way certain things are going to go and what no

what's going to be in the future all right

guys well i want to thank you for your time i know you're super busy and you just had a huge project that you because

we rescheduled this a couple of times uh thank you so much i hope you find

more clients and do more amazing things and your um at your studio and we'll leave the links so if everybody anybody

wants to learn more or maybe send you an application um they can do

that through the email there all right thank you so much and appreciate uh yeah it was a pleasure thank you yeah

thank you thanks for enjoying another episode of the 80 level roundtable podcast

check out upcoming episodes on the 80 level website at eighty dot lv join our career site at 80.lv

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