From Outsourcing to Art Management with Len de Gracia - 80 Level Podcast

Former CD Projekt Art Manager Len de Gracia talked about her experience working in big-budget games. We discussed work in Europe, the outsourcing market, and the challenges of game production, and shared some advice for artists on what they can improve to land a great job.

Len de Gracia is an Associate Art Director at Build A Rocket Boy
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lendegracia/

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Transcript

tell us a bit about your story I mean you've worked at CD project red you

worked at Rocksteady you work at dip silver like huge

Studios how did you start like how did you find your way from like a freelancer into

doing all those gigs started in the Philippines

um I was I had the programming background and I went into a multimedia School

and when I started Outsourcing or game development

Outsourcing maybe had the Head Start of about two three years before I I went into the

industry and at that time there were only a handful of game Outsourcing studios in

the Philippines um one of them was called Lady Luck

and Lady Luck was one of the primary vendors of a naughty dog

and they brought AAA to the Philippines and basically trained up a bunch of

artists to start working on those games so I joined one of the Lady Luck

specifically um and then from there that became my

launching point to like studying in Canada just to reinforce my knowledge and then from there I went over to

Europe to see the project um which back during that time they only

shipped like Witcher 2 so they weren't they were there they had the presence but which Nursery wasn't a thing yet

um and I figured you know what let's let's try to live in Europe um so I ended up spending the next five

and a half years over there actually before I shifted over to Rocksteady

and then to deep silver fish labs and then now I'm here with Builder rocket

boy there are new huge Publishers being born in Europe like embracer for example

which is kind of black I mean are they actually new because they've been around for a while right yeah I mean I've been

covering this industry since like 90s so for me it's they're pretty new

they seem pretty new but they've been they've been like just recently buying a

lot of video game companies definitely so that's also one of the things that's

dig in Europe and I'm just trying to understand like from like if because you

live in in the heart of it right you understand how they kind of operate when

you are there how do you see this industry in the region not just in Hungary but let's say

when you go to European events when you go to Gamescom when you go to all those places like do

you feel if it's expanding shrinking it seems to

be expanding in certain places like definitely Poland it's been erupting all

over the place like if I'm not mistaken um Infinity Ward is now there

um Activision as well just recently opened up like a branch at the moment do

you feel like this is happening because of the just a lot of talent that's there from

like this big like people can fly and then Tech land and then there's so it's a CD project it's Tech land it's people

can fly it's 11-bit and then all of those employees or all of that Talent

started basically spreading across Europe but mostly centered in Poland

because they have families there um and they don't want to leave because because there's like this

reasonable um should I say

like the cost of living is very affordable in those places so I go you

know to to another country where the cost of living is high the salaries are

okay but it's not enough to sustain you in a way that you can still buy property in all of these things

so yeah I think that's why they want to stay so if if we're talking about Poland

what are like the other big kind of Powerhouse regions in Europe that are

still making like Triple A games I would say the UK is still on it

yeah the UK um there's only a handful like in Germany

but hardly um I believe i o interactive opened up in Barcelona

so that's starting but I think it's actually quite in Eastern Europe right now it's funnily enough yeah

why do you think this happened because of the costs of production I reckon yeah

it's the cost of production I think they also have a pretty huge coder body

um in Eastern Europe um stemming from Ukraine um like Poland

um and at the same time they just don't want to go they just

don't want to leave so what do you do you move your company there if you want to take soak up some of that Talent

um do you feel like Talent is one of the main drivers sort of like for companies

to go around in a new region like is this like the main thing where they're doing

it or are there other things like you know like we said tax incentives or

maybe cheaper I don't know leasing space or it's probably that also like

um the it's less complicated to set up shop over there but that I think the primary

drive is Talent so we kind of jumped into the European

stuff but um so one of the biggest part of your

career you were working as an outsourced manager you were working a lot with

external kind of development Duty I started as in external development we

have a big question for you so we work with a lot of people right who

either it's small Outsourcing companies or it's uh even teams who are not really

they don't have like an LLC or anything but they do want to sell their kind of

skills and capacity to a client like noted that would be like a dream client

for them wearing a big Studio let's say from the perspective of a studio since

you worked in a lot of those what do companies usually look at when

they're making this decision to hire this extra help or not to hire what are

like the you know the things that are super important in order to land the contract usually there are three aspects that we

look for in a studio that we'd like to work with um one is of course the talent the

portfolio the track record when it comes to like if they've had any

other projects before maybe from AAA Studio as well um next one is if they have the I.T

capacity so the quick internet speeds if they have it's support to be able to plug

into your perforce to your engine and accommodate to all of the tools that you

have and expose them to the people working in those companies and then the third is to have a very reliable

production team to support because what's expected if an

external team is basically to be self-sufficient to a certain degree and to be very communicative especially in

aspects that um information that they may not have

been fed to begin with OR briefed with so they have to be proactive with that because sometimes the development Studio

won't be able to catch it ahead of time so it is ideal that they would

communicate with us and post us all of the questions that could anything that could possibly

happen basically and to cover their ground so when working with I'm going to

tell you a story so um I think it was a long time ago maybe like

10 to 12 years ago like a large company in Eastern Europe they were building a

multiplayer online title sort of like similar to World of Warcraft or something like that

um stylized Graphics like a lot of assets a lot of work involved and they

started to work with outsources like and at that time uh there were also like a

lot of those smaller teams and of course they kind of ended up having

all the problems with communication and bug fixing tweaking models and all the

stuff and what they did is that created they created this huge Bible which was like I don't know like 100 pages long

where they they kind of Step by Step wrote all the mistakes that the

outsourcer could make and they were trying to communicate why this shouldn't be done or how it should be done and

kind of like that um hopefully we've grown like for the last like 10 or 12 years and now we have a

better solution so when you're kind of communicating with those teams when

you're trying to explain what you need what are the main

tools that you're using is it still like you're writing a brief and uh you still

read the brief but you also you have to be introspective

um so I was working with Rocksteady and Outsourcing or external development

is a big deal we were we were doing external development to

pretty much the number of people that were the size of our studio so it was

like 270 280. um so it's a huge extension of the

studio and it and in order to be able to pull that off you have to be introspective about your

own workflows inside the company and you have to be clear about that

um so it's because I was working with a lot of leads

and normally we would have like a few months in advance to prepare for

external development so what we were doing is basically me

asking the leads like all right so what are you trying to make okay I'm trying to make this now let's break it apart

and basically just breaking it down as if they were onboarding somebody

internally for the first time so what do they need to do what's step

one how do you make a car or something like that you know um

and I would poke and prod at the very beginning and ask all of the specific

questions already to cover all of the ground and then

to accompany that is to figure out their workflow how would your deliverables be

like what are the steps what's the first deliverable what's the second deliverable what's the third fourth up

to the final product and break it down into okay so you're

expecting Concepts first what kind of Concepts do you want they just want line

art to begin with and then once that gets approved then we do a render

because they they need to know what they're expecting up to what quality they're expecting

only then will you be able to explain that to an external vendor

because imagine you're trying to onboard 10 new people and they know nothing about how you work as a company you

can't you can't rely on like just the experience of the external Partners each

company each Triple A Dev each double A Dev that approaches them has their own

methodology and you can make an asset in 20

different ways so you got to choose which one and that's basically how you get it done

so it's not only like setting up the correct slack channels

ideally you have constant communication with them you have to treat them in a way that

they are somebody who is working in the same company you need to be able to

send them a message immediately if there is an emergency they need to know if perforce is locked

they need to know if they checked and they need to check at their files now because there will be let's say uh

they're going to make a new build and then they want to secure it you need to open up all of those lines of

communications otherwise you'll end up with well pretty much a nightmare

it's it sounds like it's an incredible amount of paperwork and organization and

basically it's it's like an increase in your head count twice yeah

it's like hiring 100 people of the same it's exactly that it's it's almost like

just imagine what if he had an internal team and you're gonna expand it now

and they will be staying with you for the next two years so the only real difference is that

if you hire internally when your project is done when you ship what do you do

with those people when you just suddenly expanded a hundred more but maybe you don't need it

so that's why you invest on external development so that you have you can

increase to a hundred over the next two years but don't necessarily have to worry about sustaining a hundred for the

next 10. yeah I think what you're saying is that it's a it's kind of like a healthier way

of doing business where your core team is kind of there and

you're taking care of them but at the same time if you need to scale a little bit you can always rely on an external

partner and that brings me to the next question

like if you're like if you're playing any games and you are lucky enough to

beat it and you see like the credits roll I am right now almost scared of this

moment because I know that it's gonna be like almost 10 or like 15 minutes of just names going for like forever and

the question coming from that in today's market like if you want to do let's say

a double a triple a production is it even conceivable that you can do

something like that without using external development or some kind of art Outsourcing

unless you minimize your scope like into something really intelligent

like um the guys who made valheim for example

five people something that just sold 16 million in

the first three weeks that was thinking smart

so it really depends on what you make when you go something like open world multiplayer I don't know City game in

the future blah blah then you're you're setting yourself up for like a huge

scope that potentially an internal team won't be able to accommodate for

so when I talk with uh like other Outsourcing companies usually like

they're uh leadership what they're saying is that uh

in the current market um Studios don't have capacity to do

everything that they want to do like there is like no way in hell that like

Sony Santa Monica or some other large uh company will be able to do like

something like I don't know like Vlog board or you know God of War or any

or Call of Duty without kind of using like external help

um do you feel overall is this kind of beneficial for the whole video game in

the city or do you feel like this creates an environment where

bigger companies are making bigger products and smaller Studios uh don't have kind of an opportunity to grow and

instead they kind of Reserve to do an Outsource work because I I know like a lot of those stories where there are a

lot there are a lot of like smaller developers Who start with external development

like just I have a bunch of employees right now yes some of them are working

on our internal project but I am taking other contracts from other AAA developers to code Dev yeah a lot of

them start out like that um but yeah in terms of AAA

I can't see any other way than actually utilizing code Dev

do you feel like in the future with all the AI going on with all the

procedural stuff going on and you were you mentioned that developers when they

think smart and they use the right tag they can kind of lower the costs and

especially the head count when they're producing do you feel like this is uh in

some way gonna influence Outsourcing is it like a substitute for outsourcing or another it

is possible because like um like recently I forget

um what is that AI who is working on Concepts right now

called that also but there's also the other one yeah mid Journey I think

yeah it's a little bit crazy but it's quite

interesting that they are finding ways uh to to basically generate

unique concept art out of just textual information and also plug in the art

style of some known artist or if not even some artist in art station and then

it would be able to adapt but you also have let's say Houdini um

back during the day when we were making Witcher we were planting every single tree manually with a brush so and and

rotating them but nowadays you can basically have all of those forests

spawn based out of logic um setting up basically like oh is it

going to be a just a basin or is it going to be up in the mountains and with

a bunch of rules you could more or less craft a baseline to cover the whole map

and then customize it later on with a bunch of artists so yeah that is doing like probably

eighty percent of the job already so whether you need Outsourcing for that

um entirely depends on your scope because maybe 80 is still not enough

so I kind of see kind of two directions there I promise this is like the last question

but that's Outsourcing but one of the examples I had is Ubisoft and actually

like Rockstar as well they have so much money that they like Rockstar they just buy huge Outsourcing

companies in India for example and then you just work with them and treat them

as like like you said like an extension team which is like they are a part of Rockstar now there are like Ubisoft is

also but they're going from another angle they're investing a lot in like r d and they're doing those papers on sync

graph where you know AI controls um whatever how the characters work in

Assassin Creed uh they're um one of the interest the most interesting example

from this kind of the line of companies that are trying to

find a way out of this where you don't want to spend extra budget I think is Embark I think they're in Denmark or

somewhere or Sweden they are just crazy like first of all

they hired all of the incredible Houdini guys then they hired a bunch of guys who

are doing Ai and they are building a huge online multiplayer game about

fighting giant spider robots or something and they are AI systems so

basically it seems like you're fighting Skynet because there are the robot and

how he thinks and moves that's a i a i it's like neural network stuff it's not

just like here A bunch of scripts and then it falls down when you you know put in a certain number of bullets in it so

and every every kind of leg has its own kind of breaking point and if you destroy one

leg it still moves but in any other way and it's all generated by AI so I'm wondering do you feel like all this Tech

that's coming up is it in any way a threat to like the human capital the

people who are working and they because I mean if AI is doing perfect animations

maybe I don't need you know that many animators anymore you know what I mean

now it entirely depends I guess because there are two schools of thought when it comes to dealing with AI one is

yes let us use utilize AI so there would be less work for Humanity but also feed

them like let's let's still keep paying them but let's say let's get AI to do most of the work and then there is the

other side where it's like why do we need to pay them when the machine is doing it

um ultimately maybe it's just me and my perception of the world but I get the feeling that it would be

the second which is like yes let's develop AI to do 80 of the work and

let's employ less um yeah that's how I see it then what do

you think all those people are going to do if you know dolly or whatever else

you know it takes over basically you need to find look for another job is it

like a what I'm trying to say this is like in the next five years or do you feel like it's just like beyond our life

well there are a bunch of artists already who are pretty much like usual utilizing Dali and mid-journey where

they have it create the initial set of uh of of assets like Concepts and then

from there they work and put put them together again into a different

um let's say concept so at the moment what they're doing is they're using it

to speed up their work which is great in the long run I don't know if it would

be able to do that to push it further than that where it actually doesn't need a human anymore

mm-hmm I got you okay so talking about

humans and uh their importance for video game in general and talking about your career a

little bit so you worked as an art manager right in I think it's uh in Deep Silver

um when when we talk with artists usually

we understand very clearly what they do like environment Arts artists creates

environments like props props materials materials what does art manager do is it

more about the art or is it more about the manager it's a little bit of both okay

so yeah I'm I'm in a in a slightly strange position because I used to be an

artist still am but I'm very managerial so what I generally

do is I try to at the moment look for the pain points that artists experience

and I try to basically either a figure out like okay you got

500 tickets pertaining to the same problem maybe this actually needs to be

impeded against a feature that we need to and then I come up with the feature

with the artist like okay what's what's the common denominator over these 500

tickets it's it's this particular thing I'm just going to be very vague about it because it could be anything and then

that's basically and then I tried to dig up like okay is it for Tech art is it for code is it for some other department

to help us with you know and it's basically that or or figuring out like

oh our Tech artist just invented the new feature and he's been inventing features for the

past couple of uh years now that is undocumented that only three people know

about in in different aspects of what of the things that he's worked on I think we

should have him document this record it in a video probably drop it into somewhere in

confluence and then spread out the knowledge and actually set up calls across various

teams to to be aware that this actually exists or in other in other aspects it's like

oh you guys don't have a folder structure or a naming convention oh dear

this is going to be a problem how do we do asset tracking efficiently

how do we how do we estimate how long the work is going to be if we cannot

track what's done and what's not done so a lot of it is like

art it's like the role of a lead in a way but on a very technical but also

managerial level where you're trying to make it efficient in terms of like coordinating between

interdepartmental teams So like um the question that I got out of this one

is um do you feel like these problems that

you're just described and I'm sure you can name many more

is this something that you have to struggle with when you're managing art teams like

creative things or is this just Universal for any kind of teams because I'm like a bigger question to build on

top of that is like what does it take to manage artists like how do you even

do this like that they are okay with you as a manager and you're they don't get mad at you and everybody's kind of you

know the same think it's also at least for me this is just my my thing

is that as a manager I need to think of myself as somebody who is not as their

boss but as somebody who wants who needs to help them

whether it's getting them focused on the things that they like doing whether it's

making sure that they feel like there is a direction in their career or there is actually somebody out there

who is actually listening to all of the issues technical issues that they encounter from a day to day that has

been blocking them and making sure that the stakeholders or other departments

are aware so that they could help and I think with at least that you can

keep them happy or at least get them to feel comfortable with you it's that that is how I see it it's it's

mostly like making them believe that you're there as an ally not

somebody who is there to impede them that's that's um so I'm telling you another story kind

of when you're talking about an airline somebody that's not a competition but

one of course during development there are different situations and let's say

you have like an author developer who's likely your art lead or

just your game director Creator whoever like and then I can I've been told like a number of

times with those stories where like there's art Department everybody's like Scribble into their stuff that suddenly he appears walks around sees some kind

of like a robot or something or something and then says the word like I want this in metal or I want this red

right and of course one decision there's like a bunch of other like a ripple

effect everywhere if it's good if it's about argument God forbid it's about like game mechanics or

something else like uh how do you solve those situations how do you make sure that the the team is you know that

they're not throwing themselves out of the window and not feel like the guys who had to redo

the sonics the Hedgehog and the in the movie I think that's uh that's the role of

middle management that's the fun bit of middle management it's like you're trying to shelter or keep everybody

happy um in terms of like the artists or or the developers but also it's like a lot

of communication with higher up stakeholders which is selling the vision as early as possible

so that they could veto it as early as possible so that they could minimize the

repercussions below but of course you can't stop that occasionally they will come over and say

I want that to be like this now even if you're already going into this trajectory

and it's basically a balancing act of how about this alternative you know I could still

you know I could still make what you want happen but here is an alternative

solution that would probably cause less trouble for people so it's basically inserting another option hopefully

crossing your fingers they buy into it if they don't well

you just have to book that into a milestone somehow I think it's very important to kind of

I know it's a little bit of politics and kind of that kind of stuff but me like I hate politics especially like

in companies I thought that when you're in a company this thing just doesn't exist you're just like free of it but uh

like a couple of years ago I read the book like a horror business something

they're saying they're like black and white saying that politics is a

like a necessary evil in every organization out there and you do have to make sure that you're kind of going

in this direction no matter where you are if it's like a small company there's a big company I

think it's Universal everywhere so when you're talking about these uh

visits from management and into the uh into the trenches let's say

uh when they were shooting movies like in the 70s let's say like Godfather there was a practice at

Paramount and any other big Series where they were showing dailies dailies is

basically something we've shot during the day and one of the anecdotes is that

Paramount saw Al Pacino and Godfather during one of the dailies and they were

so unimpressed that they wanted to fire him do you ever happen to be during those

moments where you're showing a build or you're doing something or you're showing like your key you know models or

environments and suddenly you understand that they they don't really like it when when this arises what do you do like how

do you make sure that nobody gets fired that we continue to because

it's super subjective moment right it's like this very that's what kind of can

make or break the game how do you navigate that well hopefully you don't get to that point

um for me it's more of just mitigation it's like not getting to that point

which is which means constant communication or finding ways to be able

to clearly communicate because like for me stand-ups may not be enough

talking about things verbally may not be enough somebody might be half listening

somebody you know you cannot but like I used to work before with a

software called shotgun shot grid I don't know if you've ever heard of it

um yeah so as a as as an art manager or or a head

of a department which is very visual I find it as a very very good tool to

show Works in progress or to come up with playlists pertaining to Art themes

because that way they can't just use their imagination and then reinterpret

what you're doing into something that they they think it's supposed to look like but I think that is a very useful

tool at least for me when it comes to showing production

updates because it's like this is the tone of red that I'm talking about it's

it's not this it's not that it's this one just watch the video you know and

and I I could ship them in a meeting and just show them all of this progress and then they could flag what they want what

they don't want and I could negotiate in those meetings so so my question was

when you were you talk a lot about communication and this is something I feel like a lot of

artists are struggling with you know a lot of them are introversed they don't really they don't want to

take an extra phone call when somebody calls them right um when you have Juniors who are just

starting out on a world where you have people from just fresh out of school

uh what advice would you give them what skills apart from just you know your

technical stuff or your base stuff what should they work on in order to be kind

of like a more efficient member of the team and kind of have a better you know

journey in the industry not not getting fired or I think that

um even as Juniors or even if you're just starting out in the industry

you shouldn't just be focused on your discipline there are more things than just being

really good at your craft another aspect is it's it's always a

threefold type of responsibility for me regardless of what rank you are in a

company one is yes it's about your discipline second is your responsibilities to production

and it's not just like about meeting deadlines it's not that it's owning the

content that you are that you are gonna make start thinking about repercussions

of the things that you are making start thinking about like where it can be reused

or you know speed up other people's work not just yours

and lastly is how to be a team player because being a team player means

opening up um the ability to communicate with other people in about all those other areas

such as your discipline such as the things that you can be efficient about so for me

as as a team lead it's it's all about making sure that each individual within

the team could potentially eventually take on a leadership role no matter if

they want to be a specialist or an expert in that particular field and by empowering them to be a

well-rounded individual you can delegate more you can delegate more responsibilities

because at some point you're just gonna be like uh you know you're going to be in this industry for

such a long time that you won't be a master of all of those intricacies anymore

you're gonna be stepping back and you won't be able to yourself like be able

to say this is exactly where we should go sometimes you do have to delegate that

to other people who are closer to the trenches people who are closer to the work and in

order to be able to do that you need to get them to think the way that you do

as a manager as a producer as a lead

so so you know it's all about that it's delegation making them feel like the work is their

own and it is also their responsibility so that's actually an excellent

advice for I think if you want to excel at any career right it's not just art or

it's not just Game Dev it's just you need to kind of if you're there you

might as well try to figure out what you want to do with your next step and the next step and I had this question in

mind uh when we were chatting on the on on Facebook is that

um I've been playing games like for a while and I still remember games that were like in the made in the 80s let's

say and the big question that I have now is like where are those people who are

making those games like where are the people who were making

Duke Nukem like 3D right where are those level designers where are those you know

are produced because it it the game that was created like what is like 30 years

ago or something like that what happened to them like and the question is do you feel like

game industry is this place where Only the Young can play and if you can grow

to a certain level and then you need to look for something else or do you feel like this is a place

where you can build your entire career and still be you know super successful

and continue playing games at least from what I've seen so far

there are some which actually left the industry altogether because they got tired of it but there were others many

others actually more people that I know um who decided they'd set up their own

um because they got tired of four king four other people and they wanted some sort of finance a better Financial

Security for themselves they wanted a little bit more Independence so they set up their own

shop um and that's so far what I've seen

that's one of the very popular kind of decisions to make for a game

developer and we see that's why this industry is a new studio pops up almost what like every week you open up there's

somebody invested in something um it feels like this is and you feel free

to like contradict me and interrupt me it feels like this is a a huge benefit

like even if you compare it to we have this example with your godfather

that actually did not work in film where I think it was couple who created

like United Artist brand and he wanted to build you know filmmakers for

filmmakers will create our own movies and there is no studios gonna rule us and we'll find our own money and

eventually they will went bankrupt so it didn't work out um with games it seems that

like valheim or like pubg or you know epic epic may may not be the perfect

example because they were like since forever but there is this uh potential for a hit

to come up out of nowhere and let's look at the Indie market like or a game like

stardew Valley there's like one guy just one guy slaving on it like he was

driving this shitty Toyota Corolla like from the 1980s and that's all he did but

like millions of copies sold like huge hit no nobody even remembers

Harvest Moon anymore like everybody's playing just started early so it's like reinvented the genre so do you feel like

this nature of video game developers they want to go and build their own shop do

you feel like this is this basically means that games are gonna continue on and on and on and they will outlive

Netflix and Studios and metaverses and whatever we have in the future or maybe

there is some caveat and eventually they're going to go down I think it's going to live on

it's it's funny you when you think about it when the world goes into recession who

gets the most amount of sales it's the entertainment industry it's uh it's a method of Escape

so I think I think it's going to continue I'm I'm not worried about like it ever

going down Unless somehow AI starts making its own fun games and finds the recipe to Humanity's happiness but until

then yeah so far like

you mentioned escapism I think it's a very big uh Point here

um like my hobbies are probably reading and games and at some point I figured that I

stopped watching movies all together like for because there's very little

kind of interaction post like mentally physically or emotionally or something like when I'm reading a book I kind of

like you know figure out what the character does it's in my head yeah because it's with movies it's somebody

else showing you their vision whereas when it's books it's

up to your imagination on how these characters look look like how this world looks like how it feels like you fill in

the blanks a lot in the in with a book you make it your own Vision so to speak and with the game

even though it might be super directed it's going to be superscripted there's still this

feeling that you are in control yeah it's an illusion of free will yeah yeah you're going through this on your own

with all the and like don't get me started on like multiplayer games are like very good very well designed games

like I don't know like the soul series for example where these situations they occur out of nowhere

they never they've never been scripted but the the rules work in a way where it's kind of there so I guess it's a

good way of saying that if you're the games are gonna continue we'll still be

able to find work there whether it's with AI or not with AI or and to quote

from yesterday's that the Sai is there it's sort of like a substitute but at

the end of the day at least for now it's one of those tools that can help you build stuff faster iterate faster

achieve results that you want to achieve in a quicker Manner and it's not

something you should you know ignore like a ostrich just put your head in the sand and it's something to

embrace I guess in general right all right well

um thank you so much for your time I really thank you thanks for enjoying another episode of the 80 level

Roundtable podcast check out upcoming episodes on the 80 level website at 80.

LV join our career site at 80. LV RFP

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