80 Level Podcast

From Outsourcing to Art Management with Len de Gracia - 80 Level Podcast

October 05, 2022 Kirill Tokarev / Len de Gracia Season 2 Episode 12
80 Level Podcast
From Outsourcing to Art Management with Len de Gracia - 80 Level Podcast
Show Notes Transcript

Former CD Projekt Art Manager Len de Gracia talked about her experience working in big-budget games. We discussed work in Europe, the outsourcing market, and the challenges of game production, and shared some advice for artists on what they can improve to land a great job.

Len de Gracia is an Associate Art Director at Build A Rocket Boy
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lendegracia/

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tell us a bit about your story I mean you've worked at CD project red you


worked at Rocksteady you work at dip silver like huge


Studios how did you start like how did you find your way from like a freelancer into


doing all those gigs started in the Philippines


um I was I had the programming background and I went into a multimedia School


and when I started Outsourcing or game development


Outsourcing maybe had the Head Start of about two three years before I I went into the


industry and at that time there were only a handful of game Outsourcing studios in


the Philippines um one of them was called Lady Luck


and Lady Luck was one of the primary vendors of a naughty dog


and they brought AAA to the Philippines and basically trained up a bunch of


artists to start working on those games so I joined one of the Lady Luck


specifically um and then from there that became my


launching point to like studying in Canada just to reinforce my knowledge and then from there I went over to


Europe to see the project um which back during that time they only


shipped like Witcher 2 so they weren't they were there they had the presence but which Nursery wasn't a thing yet


um and I figured you know what let's let's try to live in Europe um so I ended up spending the next five


and a half years over there actually before I shifted over to Rocksteady


and then to deep silver fish labs and then now I'm here with Builder rocket


boy there are new huge Publishers being born in Europe like embracer for example


which is kind of black I mean are they actually new because they've been around for a while right yeah I mean I've been


covering this industry since like 90s so for me it's they're pretty new


they seem pretty new but they've been they've been like just recently buying a


lot of video game companies definitely so that's also one of the things that's


dig in Europe and I'm just trying to understand like from like if because you


live in in the heart of it right you understand how they kind of operate when


you are there how do you see this industry in the region not just in Hungary but let's say


when you go to European events when you go to Gamescom when you go to all those places like do


you feel if it's expanding shrinking it seems to


be expanding in certain places like definitely Poland it's been erupting all


over the place like if I'm not mistaken um Infinity Ward is now there


um Activision as well just recently opened up like a branch at the moment do


you feel like this is happening because of the just a lot of talent that's there from


like this big like people can fly and then Tech land and then there's so it's a CD project it's Tech land it's people


can fly it's 11-bit and then all of those employees or all of that Talent


started basically spreading across Europe but mostly centered in Poland


because they have families there um and they don't want to leave because because there's like this


reasonable um should I say


like the cost of living is very affordable in those places so I go you


know to to another country where the cost of living is high the salaries are


okay but it's not enough to sustain you in a way that you can still buy property in all of these things


so yeah I think that's why they want to stay so if if we're talking about Poland


what are like the other big kind of Powerhouse regions in Europe that are


still making like Triple A games I would say the UK is still on it


yeah the UK um there's only a handful like in Germany


but hardly um I believe i o interactive opened up in Barcelona


so that's starting but I think it's actually quite in Eastern Europe right now it's funnily enough yeah


why do you think this happened because of the costs of production I reckon yeah


it's the cost of production I think they also have a pretty huge coder body


um in Eastern Europe um stemming from Ukraine um like Poland


um and at the same time they just don't want to go they just


don't want to leave so what do you do you move your company there if you want to take soak up some of that Talent


um do you feel like Talent is one of the main drivers sort of like for companies


to go around in a new region like is this like the main thing where they're doing


it or are there other things like you know like we said tax incentives or


maybe cheaper I don't know leasing space or it's probably that also like


um the it's less complicated to set up shop over there but that I think the primary


drive is Talent so we kind of jumped into the European


stuff but um so one of the biggest part of your


career you were working as an outsourced manager you were working a lot with


external kind of development Duty I started as in external development we


have a big question for you so we work with a lot of people right who


either it's small Outsourcing companies or it's uh even teams who are not really


they don't have like an LLC or anything but they do want to sell their kind of


skills and capacity to a client like noted that would be like a dream client


for them wearing a big Studio let's say from the perspective of a studio since


you worked in a lot of those what do companies usually look at when


they're making this decision to hire this extra help or not to hire what are


like the you know the things that are super important in order to land the contract usually there are three aspects that we


look for in a studio that we'd like to work with um one is of course the talent the


portfolio the track record when it comes to like if they've had any


other projects before maybe from AAA Studio as well um next one is if they have the I.T


capacity so the quick internet speeds if they have it's support to be able to plug


into your perforce to your engine and accommodate to all of the tools that you


have and expose them to the people working in those companies and then the third is to have a very reliable


production team to support because what's expected if an


external team is basically to be self-sufficient to a certain degree and to be very communicative especially in


aspects that um information that they may not have


been fed to begin with OR briefed with so they have to be proactive with that because sometimes the development Studio


won't be able to catch it ahead of time so it is ideal that they would


communicate with us and post us all of the questions that could anything that could possibly


happen basically and to cover their ground so when working with I'm going to


tell you a story so um I think it was a long time ago maybe like


10 to 12 years ago like a large company in Eastern Europe they were building a


multiplayer online title sort of like similar to World of Warcraft or something like that


um stylized Graphics like a lot of assets a lot of work involved and they


started to work with outsources like and at that time uh there were also like a


lot of those smaller teams and of course they kind of ended up having


all the problems with communication and bug fixing tweaking models and all the


stuff and what they did is that created they created this huge Bible which was like I don't know like 100 pages long


where they they kind of Step by Step wrote all the mistakes that the


outsourcer could make and they were trying to communicate why this shouldn't be done or how it should be done and


kind of like that um hopefully we've grown like for the last like 10 or 12 years and now we have a


better solution so when you're kind of communicating with those teams when


you're trying to explain what you need what are the main


tools that you're using is it still like you're writing a brief and uh you still


read the brief but you also you have to be introspective


um so I was working with Rocksteady and Outsourcing or external development


is a big deal we were we were doing external development to


pretty much the number of people that were the size of our studio so it was


like 270 280. um so it's a huge extension of the


studio and it and in order to be able to pull that off you have to be introspective about your


own workflows inside the company and you have to be clear about that


um so it's because I was working with a lot of leads


and normally we would have like a few months in advance to prepare for


external development so what we were doing is basically me


asking the leads like all right so what are you trying to make okay I'm trying to make this now let's break it apart


and basically just breaking it down as if they were onboarding somebody


internally for the first time so what do they need to do what's step


one how do you make a car or something like that you know um


and I would poke and prod at the very beginning and ask all of the specific


questions already to cover all of the ground and then


to accompany that is to figure out their workflow how would your deliverables be


like what are the steps what's the first deliverable what's the second deliverable what's the third fourth up


to the final product and break it down into okay so you're


expecting Concepts first what kind of Concepts do you want they just want line


art to begin with and then once that gets approved then we do a render


because they they need to know what they're expecting up to what quality they're expecting


only then will you be able to explain that to an external vendor


because imagine you're trying to onboard 10 new people and they know nothing about how you work as a company you


can't you can't rely on like just the experience of the external Partners each


company each Triple A Dev each double A Dev that approaches them has their own


methodology and you can make an asset in 20


different ways so you got to choose which one and that's basically how you get it done


so it's not only like setting up the correct slack channels


ideally you have constant communication with them you have to treat them in a way that


they are somebody who is working in the same company you need to be able to


send them a message immediately if there is an emergency they need to know if perforce is locked


they need to know if they checked and they need to check at their files now because there will be let's say uh


they're going to make a new build and then they want to secure it you need to open up all of those lines of


communications otherwise you'll end up with well pretty much a nightmare


it's it sounds like it's an incredible amount of paperwork and organization and


basically it's it's like an increase in your head count twice yeah


it's like hiring 100 people of the same it's exactly that it's it's almost like


just imagine what if he had an internal team and you're gonna expand it now


and they will be staying with you for the next two years so the only real difference is that


if you hire internally when your project is done when you ship what do you do


with those people when you just suddenly expanded a hundred more but maybe you don't need it


so that's why you invest on external development so that you have you can


increase to a hundred over the next two years but don't necessarily have to worry about sustaining a hundred for the


next 10. yeah I think what you're saying is that it's a it's kind of like a healthier way


of doing business where your core team is kind of there and


you're taking care of them but at the same time if you need to scale a little bit you can always rely on an external


partner and that brings me to the next question


like if you're like if you're playing any games and you are lucky enough to


beat it and you see like the credits roll I am right now almost scared of this


moment because I know that it's gonna be like almost 10 or like 15 minutes of just names going for like forever and


the question coming from that in today's market like if you want to do let's say


a double a triple a production is it even conceivable that you can do


something like that without using external development or some kind of art Outsourcing


unless you minimize your scope like into something really intelligent


like um the guys who made valheim for example


five people something that just sold 16 million in


the first three weeks that was thinking smart


so it really depends on what you make when you go something like open world multiplayer I don't know City game in


the future blah blah then you're you're setting yourself up for like a huge


scope that potentially an internal team won't be able to accommodate for


so when I talk with uh like other Outsourcing companies usually like


they're uh leadership what they're saying is that uh


in the current market um Studios don't have capacity to do


everything that they want to do like there is like no way in hell that like


Sony Santa Monica or some other large uh company will be able to do like


something like I don't know like Vlog board or you know God of War or any


or Call of Duty without kind of using like external help


um do you feel overall is this kind of beneficial for the whole video game in


the city or do you feel like this creates an environment where


bigger companies are making bigger products and smaller Studios uh don't have kind of an opportunity to grow and


instead they kind of Reserve to do an Outsource work because I I know like a lot of those stories where there are a


lot there are a lot of like smaller developers Who start with external development


like just I have a bunch of employees right now yes some of them are working


on our internal project but I am taking other contracts from other AAA developers to code Dev yeah a lot of


them start out like that um but yeah in terms of AAA


I can't see any other way than actually utilizing code Dev


do you feel like in the future with all the AI going on with all the


procedural stuff going on and you were you mentioned that developers when they


think smart and they use the right tag they can kind of lower the costs and


especially the head count when they're producing do you feel like this is uh in


some way gonna influence Outsourcing is it like a substitute for outsourcing or another it


is possible because like um like recently I forget


um what is that AI who is working on Concepts right now


called that also but there's also the other one yeah mid Journey I think


yeah it's a little bit crazy but it's quite


interesting that they are finding ways uh to to basically generate


unique concept art out of just textual information and also plug in the art


style of some known artist or if not even some artist in art station and then


it would be able to adapt but you also have let's say Houdini um


back during the day when we were making Witcher we were planting every single tree manually with a brush so and and


rotating them but nowadays you can basically have all of those forests


spawn based out of logic um setting up basically like oh is it


going to be a just a basin or is it going to be up in the mountains and with


a bunch of rules you could more or less craft a baseline to cover the whole map


and then customize it later on with a bunch of artists so yeah that is doing like probably


eighty percent of the job already so whether you need Outsourcing for that


um entirely depends on your scope because maybe 80 is still not enough


so I kind of see kind of two directions there I promise this is like the last question


but that's Outsourcing but one of the examples I had is Ubisoft and actually


like Rockstar as well they have so much money that they like Rockstar they just buy huge Outsourcing


companies in India for example and then you just work with them and treat them


as like like you said like an extension team which is like they are a part of Rockstar now there are like Ubisoft is


also but they're going from another angle they're investing a lot in like r d and they're doing those papers on sync


graph where you know AI controls um whatever how the characters work in


Assassin Creed uh they're um one of the interest the most interesting example


from this kind of the line of companies that are trying to


find a way out of this where you don't want to spend extra budget I think is Embark I think they're in Denmark or


somewhere or Sweden they are just crazy like first of all


they hired all of the incredible Houdini guys then they hired a bunch of guys who


are doing Ai and they are building a huge online multiplayer game about


fighting giant spider robots or something and they are AI systems so


basically it seems like you're fighting Skynet because there are the robot and


how he thinks and moves that's a i a i it's like neural network stuff it's not


just like here A bunch of scripts and then it falls down when you you know put in a certain number of bullets in it so


and every every kind of leg has its own kind of breaking point and if you destroy one


leg it still moves but in any other way and it's all generated by AI so I'm wondering do you feel like all this Tech


that's coming up is it in any way a threat to like the human capital the


people who are working and they because I mean if AI is doing perfect animations


maybe I don't need you know that many animators anymore you know what I mean


now it entirely depends I guess because there are two schools of thought when it comes to dealing with AI one is


yes let us use utilize AI so there would be less work for Humanity but also feed


them like let's let's still keep paying them but let's say let's get AI to do most of the work and then there is the


other side where it's like why do we need to pay them when the machine is doing it


um ultimately maybe it's just me and my perception of the world but I get the feeling that it would be


the second which is like yes let's develop AI to do 80 of the work and


let's employ less um yeah that's how I see it then what do


you think all those people are going to do if you know dolly or whatever else


you know it takes over basically you need to find look for another job is it


like a what I'm trying to say this is like in the next five years or do you feel like it's just like beyond our life


well there are a bunch of artists already who are pretty much like usual utilizing Dali and mid-journey where


they have it create the initial set of uh of of assets like Concepts and then


from there they work and put put them together again into a different


um let's say concept so at the moment what they're doing is they're using it


to speed up their work which is great in the long run I don't know if it would


be able to do that to push it further than that where it actually doesn't need a human anymore


mm-hmm I got you okay so talking about


humans and uh their importance for video game in general and talking about your career a


little bit so you worked as an art manager right in I think it's uh in Deep Silver


um when when we talk with artists usually


we understand very clearly what they do like environment Arts artists creates


environments like props props materials materials what does art manager do is it


more about the art or is it more about the manager it's a little bit of both okay


so yeah I'm I'm in a in a slightly strange position because I used to be an


artist still am but I'm very managerial so what I generally


do is I try to at the moment look for the pain points that artists experience


and I try to basically either a figure out like okay you got


500 tickets pertaining to the same problem maybe this actually needs to be


impeded against a feature that we need to and then I come up with the feature


with the artist like okay what's what's the common denominator over these 500


tickets it's it's this particular thing I'm just going to be very vague about it because it could be anything and then


that's basically and then I tried to dig up like okay is it for Tech art is it for code is it for some other department


to help us with you know and it's basically that or or figuring out like


oh our Tech artist just invented the new feature and he's been inventing features for the


past couple of uh years now that is undocumented that only three people know


about in in different aspects of what of the things that he's worked on I think we


should have him document this record it in a video probably drop it into somewhere in


confluence and then spread out the knowledge and actually set up calls across various


teams to to be aware that this actually exists or in other in other aspects it's like


oh you guys don't have a folder structure or a naming convention oh dear


this is going to be a problem how do we do asset tracking efficiently


how do we how do we estimate how long the work is going to be if we cannot


track what's done and what's not done so a lot of it is like


art it's like the role of a lead in a way but on a very technical but also


managerial level where you're trying to make it efficient in terms of like coordinating between


interdepartmental teams So like um the question that I got out of this one


is um do you feel like these problems that


you're just described and I'm sure you can name many more


is this something that you have to struggle with when you're managing art teams like


creative things or is this just Universal for any kind of teams because I'm like a bigger question to build on


top of that is like what does it take to manage artists like how do you even


do this like that they are okay with you as a manager and you're they don't get mad at you and everybody's kind of you


know the same think it's also at least for me this is just my my thing


is that as a manager I need to think of myself as somebody who is not as their


boss but as somebody who wants who needs to help them


whether it's getting them focused on the things that they like doing whether it's


making sure that they feel like there is a direction in their career or there is actually somebody out there


who is actually listening to all of the issues technical issues that they encounter from a day to day that has


been blocking them and making sure that the stakeholders or other departments


are aware so that they could help and I think with at least that you can


keep them happy or at least get them to feel comfortable with you it's that that is how I see it it's it's


mostly like making them believe that you're there as an ally not


somebody who is there to impede them that's that's um so I'm telling you another story kind


of when you're talking about an airline somebody that's not a competition but


one of course during development there are different situations and let's say


you have like an author developer who's likely your art lead or


just your game director Creator whoever like and then I can I've been told like a number of


times with those stories where like there's art Department everybody's like Scribble into their stuff that suddenly he appears walks around sees some kind


of like a robot or something or something and then says the word like I want this in metal or I want this red


right and of course one decision there's like a bunch of other like a ripple


effect everywhere if it's good if it's about argument God forbid it's about like game mechanics or


something else like uh how do you solve those situations how do you make sure that the the team is you know that


they're not throwing themselves out of the window and not feel like the guys who had to redo


the sonics the Hedgehog and the in the movie I think that's uh that's the role of


middle management that's the fun bit of middle management it's like you're trying to shelter or keep everybody


happy um in terms of like the artists or or the developers but also it's like a lot


of communication with higher up stakeholders which is selling the vision as early as possible


so that they could veto it as early as possible so that they could minimize the


repercussions below but of course you can't stop that occasionally they will come over and say


I want that to be like this now even if you're already going into this trajectory


and it's basically a balancing act of how about this alternative you know I could still


you know I could still make what you want happen but here is an alternative


solution that would probably cause less trouble for people so it's basically inserting another option hopefully


crossing your fingers they buy into it if they don't well


you just have to book that into a milestone somehow I think it's very important to kind of


I know it's a little bit of politics and kind of that kind of stuff but me like I hate politics especially like


in companies I thought that when you're in a company this thing just doesn't exist you're just like free of it but uh


like a couple of years ago I read the book like a horror business something


they're saying they're like black and white saying that politics is a


like a necessary evil in every organization out there and you do have to make sure that you're kind of going


in this direction no matter where you are if it's like a small company there's a big company I


think it's Universal everywhere so when you're talking about these uh


visits from management and into the uh into the trenches let's say


uh when they were shooting movies like in the 70s let's say like Godfather there was a practice at


Paramount and any other big Series where they were showing dailies dailies is


basically something we've shot during the day and one of the anecdotes is that


Paramount saw Al Pacino and Godfather during one of the dailies and they were


so unimpressed that they wanted to fire him do you ever happen to be during those


moments where you're showing a build or you're doing something or you're showing like your key you know models or


environments and suddenly you understand that they they don't really like it when when this arises what do you do like how


do you make sure that nobody gets fired that we continue to because


it's super subjective moment right it's like this very that's what kind of can


make or break the game how do you navigate that well hopefully you don't get to that point


um for me it's more of just mitigation it's like not getting to that point


which is which means constant communication or finding ways to be able


to clearly communicate because like for me stand-ups may not be enough


talking about things verbally may not be enough somebody might be half listening


somebody you know you cannot but like I used to work before with a


software called shotgun shot grid I don't know if you've ever heard of it


um yeah so as a as as an art manager or or a head


of a department which is very visual I find it as a very very good tool to


show Works in progress or to come up with playlists pertaining to Art themes


because that way they can't just use their imagination and then reinterpret


what you're doing into something that they they think it's supposed to look like but I think that is a very useful


tool at least for me when it comes to showing production


updates because it's like this is the tone of red that I'm talking about it's


it's not this it's not that it's this one just watch the video you know and


and I I could ship them in a meeting and just show them all of this progress and then they could flag what they want what


they don't want and I could negotiate in those meetings so so my question was


when you were you talk a lot about communication and this is something I feel like a lot of


artists are struggling with you know a lot of them are introversed they don't really they don't want to


take an extra phone call when somebody calls them right um when you have Juniors who are just


starting out on a world where you have people from just fresh out of school


uh what advice would you give them what skills apart from just you know your


technical stuff or your base stuff what should they work on in order to be kind


of like a more efficient member of the team and kind of have a better you know


journey in the industry not not getting fired or I think that


um even as Juniors or even if you're just starting out in the industry


you shouldn't just be focused on your discipline there are more things than just being


really good at your craft another aspect is it's it's always a


threefold type of responsibility for me regardless of what rank you are in a


company one is yes it's about your discipline second is your responsibilities to production


and it's not just like about meeting deadlines it's not that it's owning the


content that you are that you are gonna make start thinking about repercussions


of the things that you are making start thinking about like where it can be reused


or you know speed up other people's work not just yours


and lastly is how to be a team player because being a team player means


opening up um the ability to communicate with other people in about all those other areas


such as your discipline such as the things that you can be efficient about so for me


as as a team lead it's it's all about making sure that each individual within


the team could potentially eventually take on a leadership role no matter if


they want to be a specialist or an expert in that particular field and by empowering them to be a


well-rounded individual you can delegate more you can delegate more responsibilities


because at some point you're just gonna be like uh you know you're going to be in this industry for


such a long time that you won't be a master of all of those intricacies anymore


you're gonna be stepping back and you won't be able to yourself like be able


to say this is exactly where we should go sometimes you do have to delegate that


to other people who are closer to the trenches people who are closer to the work and in


order to be able to do that you need to get them to think the way that you do


as a manager as a producer as a lead


so so you know it's all about that it's delegation making them feel like the work is their


own and it is also their responsibility so that's actually an excellent


advice for I think if you want to excel at any career right it's not just art or


it's not just Game Dev it's just you need to kind of if you're there you


might as well try to figure out what you want to do with your next step and the next step and I had this question in


mind uh when we were chatting on the on on Facebook is that


um I've been playing games like for a while and I still remember games that were like in the made in the 80s let's


say and the big question that I have now is like where are those people who are


making those games like where are the people who were making


Duke Nukem like 3D right where are those level designers where are those you know


are produced because it it the game that was created like what is like 30 years


ago or something like that what happened to them like and the question is do you feel like


game industry is this place where Only the Young can play and if you can grow


to a certain level and then you need to look for something else or do you feel like this is a place


where you can build your entire career and still be you know super successful


and continue playing games at least from what I've seen so far


there are some which actually left the industry altogether because they got tired of it but there were others many


others actually more people that I know um who decided they'd set up their own


um because they got tired of four king four other people and they wanted some sort of finance a better Financial


Security for themselves they wanted a little bit more Independence so they set up their own


shop um and that's so far what I've seen


that's one of the very popular kind of decisions to make for a game


developer and we see that's why this industry is a new studio pops up almost what like every week you open up there's


somebody invested in something um it feels like this is and you feel free


to like contradict me and interrupt me it feels like this is a a huge benefit


like even if you compare it to we have this example with your godfather


that actually did not work in film where I think it was couple who created


like United Artist brand and he wanted to build you know filmmakers for


filmmakers will create our own movies and there is no studios gonna rule us and we'll find our own money and


eventually they will went bankrupt so it didn't work out um with games it seems that


like valheim or like pubg or you know epic epic may may not be the perfect


example because they were like since forever but there is this uh potential for a hit


to come up out of nowhere and let's look at the Indie market like or a game like


stardew Valley there's like one guy just one guy slaving on it like he was


driving this shitty Toyota Corolla like from the 1980s and that's all he did but


like millions of copies sold like huge hit no nobody even remembers


Harvest Moon anymore like everybody's playing just started early so it's like reinvented the genre so do you feel like


this nature of video game developers they want to go and build their own shop do


you feel like this is this basically means that games are gonna continue on and on and on and they will outlive


Netflix and Studios and metaverses and whatever we have in the future or maybe


there is some caveat and eventually they're going to go down I think it's going to live on


it's it's funny you when you think about it when the world goes into recession who


gets the most amount of sales it's the entertainment industry it's uh it's a method of Escape


so I think I think it's going to continue I'm I'm not worried about like it ever


going down Unless somehow AI starts making its own fun games and finds the recipe to Humanity's happiness but until


then yeah so far like


you mentioned escapism I think it's a very big uh Point here


um like my hobbies are probably reading and games and at some point I figured that I


stopped watching movies all together like for because there's very little


kind of interaction post like mentally physically or emotionally or something like when I'm reading a book I kind of


like you know figure out what the character does it's in my head yeah because it's with movies it's somebody


else showing you their vision whereas when it's books it's


up to your imagination on how these characters look look like how this world looks like how it feels like you fill in


the blanks a lot in the in with a book you make it your own Vision so to speak and with the game


even though it might be super directed it's going to be superscripted there's still this


feeling that you are in control yeah it's an illusion of free will yeah yeah you're going through this on your own


with all the and like don't get me started on like multiplayer games are like very good very well designed games


like I don't know like the soul series for example where these situations they occur out of nowhere


they never they've never been scripted but the the rules work in a way where it's kind of there so I guess it's a


good way of saying that if you're the games are gonna continue we'll still be


able to find work there whether it's with AI or not with AI or and to quote


from yesterday's that the Sai is there it's sort of like a substitute but at


the end of the day at least for now it's one of those tools that can help you build stuff faster iterate faster


achieve results that you want to achieve in a quicker Manner and it's not


something you should you know ignore like a ostrich just put your head in the sand and it's something to


embrace I guess in general right all right well


um thank you so much for your time I really thank you thanks for enjoying another episode of the 80 level


Roundtable podcast check out upcoming episodes on the 80 level website at 80.


LV join our career site at 80. LV RFP


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