80 Level Podcast

The Art of Being an Artist in the Age of AI with Laura from Outgang - 80 Level Podcast

February 01, 2023 Kirill Tokarev / Laura Gallagher Season 3 Episode 1
The Art of Being an Artist in the Age of AI with Laura from Outgang - 80 Level Podcast
80 Level Podcast
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80 Level Podcast
The Art of Being an Artist in the Age of AI with Laura from Outgang - 80 Level Podcast
Feb 01, 2023 Season 3 Episode 1
Kirill Tokarev / Laura Gallagher

Laura Gallagher and Kirill Tokarev discuss how to use your artistic value as a way to stand out in the age of AI tools, the current state of the game industry, and the importance of keeping track of your emotional and physical state as a developer. Laura has 13 years of experience in gamedev: she was Lead Character Artist on games like Deus Ex and Horizon. She’s also creating courses and YT tutorials on character art, helping 3D artists improve their skills.

Check out Laura’s tutorials on Outgang YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/@outgang 

Visit Outgang website and browse classes: https://outgang.studio/ 

Follow 80 LEVEL on social media:
https://www.facebook.com/LevelEighty 
https://www.instagram.com/eighty_level/
https://twitter.com/80Level 

We are looking for more artists!
Join 80 LEVEL Talent for free: https://80lv.pro/join-80lvTalent
Get your work noticed by some of the biggest and best developers, publishers, and studios in video games today.

The Gaming Blender
Could you design a video game?

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

This video is sponsored by Xsolla, a global video game commerce company with a robust and powerful set of tools and services designed specifically for the video game industry: http://xsolla.pro/8023

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Laura Gallagher and Kirill Tokarev discuss how to use your artistic value as a way to stand out in the age of AI tools, the current state of the game industry, and the importance of keeping track of your emotional and physical state as a developer. Laura has 13 years of experience in gamedev: she was Lead Character Artist on games like Deus Ex and Horizon. She’s also creating courses and YT tutorials on character art, helping 3D artists improve their skills.

Check out Laura’s tutorials on Outgang YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/@outgang 

Visit Outgang website and browse classes: https://outgang.studio/ 

Follow 80 LEVEL on social media:
https://www.facebook.com/LevelEighty 
https://www.instagram.com/eighty_level/
https://twitter.com/80Level 

We are looking for more artists!
Join 80 LEVEL Talent for free: https://80lv.pro/join-80lvTalent
Get your work noticed by some of the biggest and best developers, publishers, and studios in video games today.

The Gaming Blender
Could you design a video game?

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

This video is sponsored by Xsolla, a global video game commerce company with a robust and powerful set of tools and services designed specifically for the video game industry: http://xsolla.pro/8023

Laura you have this amazing career and you're you're taking those


incredible Chances with because if you if you watch your journey you're kind of like you're not the kind of person who's


kind of like afraid to make the move and so on so I don't want to do like this like standard intro tell us a little bit


about yourself or something like that but maybe you could say about kind of like the pivotal points in your career


when you were working as a you know as a as a lead and uh like very big games on


characters and when you decided to build your own school or maybe there were some other things where like along your


career where you thought like oh wow like that's like that's it that's a changing thing for me


sure yeah so uh the pivotal moments that happened in my career there's been a few um there's been a few that were recent


there's been a few that were uh much earlier there um one of the pivotal moments that


happened in my career there was one of the first ones to happen was when I got hired on Deus Ex human


Revolution and so that was the first game that had worked on I was straight out of school uh I was still very naive


as far as everything was was a concern there and um the reason why uh and the


pivotal moment that happened there was that um I got to work with an amazing art a director of the nine of geneta


Jacques and um he um helped me understand that we were


doing art when we're doing video games and we're doing characters when we're doing um environments uh that was his


mentality it's like we're here we want to create something that has a very high artistic value like we want to make art


and our role is to be artists it's not to be modelers per se because before that I was actually calling myself a 3D


modeler as opposed to 3D artists because I was like my my role is to take a concept and to do it in 3D directly uh


as is and without changing anything in there so just give me a concept I'm going to do it don't uh ask me to


somehow be creative just give me the concept and I will make a great version of that but uh you know you need to tell


me what to do sort of thing um and he got me to like understand that no no like the most important thing that


we can do here is to do art to have an artistic dialogue to make artistic choices as to the details that we put on


characters um and also to um instead of trying to match reality


100 percent because that's kind of what you do when you're a modeler you try to just be okay I'll just match whatever is real as as


well as I can like can we actually try to uh let go of reality a little bit and


try to introduce a little bit of artistic um I don't want to call it stylization although that game was certainly


stylized but um artistic expression perhaps into the details we put on the character


um perhaps we can actually uh exaggerate proportions of our characters slightly if we want to let's say make a character


uh more um imposing without necessarily going so far that now it looks like a cartoon game right but but just like can


we just just let go of this kind of very dry um approach to uh trying to capture


reality in in 3D and actually try to uh approach every detail that we put on a


character with a certain amount of artistic expression or artistic dialogue perhaps


um it turns out that that game uh got a lot of uh awards for its art Direction and it makes a lot of sense so he was


extreme family influential in in kind of shaping me to kind of understand that ultimately art


uh and reality are not necessarily the same thing you know like sometimes you have to go against reality a little


bit if you want to make something that has more of an um artistic um interest there that was one of the major shifts


that happened within my career and that kind of influenced all of my um


uh the rest of my a career um and and that is something that I try


to also uh tell all of my students you know because when you when you talk to students like people who are trying to get within 3D uh who are starting to be


uh to get within 3D um you can tell that they're highly focused on tools and they're highly focused on capturing


reality and you have to get them to kind of understand that what we do we have to Value the artistic Merit of what we do


and the artistic Merit of what we do has more value than the simple rote uh usage


of the tools you know that's why studio will hire you afterward it is because of your artistic value your artistic


critical judgment those are the things that you bring on the production that ultimately really make you valuable for


a studio uh which ultimately I I think is also part of the answer as to what


should artists do in the age of AI um you know really think of the value


that we bring on Productions and really ask ourselves what is the value that I'm bringing um and is that value that I am bringing


tied to a particular tool or is it more of a uh a meta thing um in a certain way


there you know because like if we have a high artistic Judgment of the work that


we do or the work that other people do um then it doesn't matter what tools that we use uh we will be able to


provide something that is valuable to a studio because the studio will in turn benefit from having people on their team


who is able to look at any result of any tools whether those are AI tools whether


those are traditional modeling tools I find it very weird to now say that we are that there are that there's such a


thing as a traditional digital artist but I think that that is probably something that we'll have to call ourselves uh more and more there


um and so uh if you have a strong artistic sense uh if you understand what


makes something artistically appealing um it doesn't matter what tools you are using or what tools other people are


going to use uh that particular value that you're bringing to production will always be there you know yeah I think


there's you mentioned a lot of things here I just want to kind of start unpacking


um so first of all thank you for sharing like for those people who don't know like they are director that you uh


talked about he actually looks a lot like the main character in the in the


game so yeah you can now picture him and the other thing I wanted to mention that


you said like about this uh this idea that it's not it doesn't have to be one to one so it's not it's not really


you're you're not doing like a copy right you're rethinking


and have two analogies for that is one is like from my former professional life


where I I worked as a translator and I try to translate books and I


failed miserably at it and my idea was that uh I'm not actually I don't wanna


like repeat whatever the guy is saying I want to do like my own thing and my translations


were kind of like all over so I think in a way this is like what like we see reality and artists is a lens he sees it


in a certain way and another analogy I had I heard I think from one of the photographers of somebody like of my


friends and he said that um because I'm big in on photography and uh


like even when you take a picture which is like a mirror image of what you


see it's still distorts reality right it's still not one to one right because there's so much


thing there's so many different elements there and this is like what Andrew


Maximo was talking one uh on on one of his uh GDC talks he said like that


naughty dog is not building he worked at naridak back then it's not before he started like his new uh


company uh he said that they're not trying to do like the like the real


thing they're they're doing like artistically enhanced reality because like if you look around like I live in


L.A it's a beautiful city but if you go around like a parking lot there's like there's nothing there it's not really


that exciting but if you go to like Battlefield or something it's like explosions like you know everything's


shimmery and the reflections everywhere it's like such a different experience so


as artists I think it's great that that you got this piece of advice where you


look at things and they're like very different and you you kind of go through this you are this lens that's kind of


like shifts things and changes them and you're not really like locked into


whatever the physical parameters are and talking about physical parameters and


being locked so a couple of days ago I think maybe like five days ago I subscribed to some of


the new Journey groups on Facebook like I'm not a user myself but I did I did subscribe to that and uh like my


my first emotion will shock


you know what I mean like I I looked at it and I was like I have zebrush group and then I have like majority group and


I I understand that it's very hard for me to tell the


difference now if I look closely I can right but if I'm just you know surfing through a feed on


on a phone I'm like what what is happening right and um we we discussed this question


about like the biggest Trends what are the biggest Trends in games right now but um I I feel like this is my feeling feel


free to kind of build on on that or kind of share your opinion I feel like this is some kind of like a tectonic shift


like the ones that uh we we maybe we've seen something like this with the


introduction of like procedural tools or maybe photogrammetry but I it feels like it's even bigger because it's it attacks


so so fast and is it this disruption that um I mean I was not ready for because I


remember like five years ago they showed us like how computer vision works and it was like all like fractals and gibberish


and you couldn't make you know heads or tails and and now it's like


it's almost like a zebra sculpt or it's almost like something out there and my


question is what's your take on it like where do you think this is gonna take us like as an


industry and the kind of the last part is like what do people actually do because you you


you're probably uh um you know in groups if you have friends and everybody is super worried because some people are


already losing jobs yeah yeah I mean that


there's a lot of socilities about AI that I think are worth to spend some time on and to um unpack um individually


um first of all it you are absolutely right that this is a technology shift


um for me the only like no one can predict where this technology will go but the


only thing that we can say for certainty is that it will simply get better it will get better and it probably will get better than we think that it will get


better um if you are an artist right now and you see your job as the only uh


um as the simple copying of something let's say that you do 3D character art and you see your job as simply taking a


concept and copying it within 3D you should be shaking in your boots right now this will impact you


um if you start uh seeing your own role as something that is bigger than the


simple usage of tools then I think that in there lies a particular um path for the future for you like okay


so here's an example for me okay um now I don't use AI Tools in any sort of way


right now but um and you were asking me previously about um the kind of the the


um the particular moments in my life where something happened that changed my own perspective of my own career well


there's been a change recently where um I used to teach 3D at a local University


and that was great I had a lot of fun doing that I had plenty of really cool students to interact with on a regular


basis but I kind of figured out that actually if I kind of look at the impact that I can have throughout the world and


that I can like how can I help people what is the value that I can bring to the world um it was clear to me that uh as fun as


it is to teach at a university it is very limited in the amount of people that I can reach with what uh the the uh


of my particular style of teaching with the kind of things that I particularly teach it was clear that there was a


limitation there there's only so much that I can do and so one question always goes through my mind is how can I maximize the impact that I have either


throughout the world or on the production and to focus on on becoming the person that will be able to do that


you know so I left University because I figured if I teach on YouTube instead I


can go from teaching to what would be 30 people at a time to 30 000 people at a


time right and so I figured okay what is the impact that I can have in the world in the world in its current state what


is the biggest impact that I can have and can I uh shift myself towards that


you know because the thing about um and


so so that's more or less one of the biggest reasons why I became um a YouTuber there is just to reach a lot


more people there and just maximize the kind of impact that I can have there but um


so when we think of AI you know um it's it's worth to to consider other


subtleties too like as far as as people working within video game studios


um our role if we are let's say people who do concept art becomes now becoming mini


art directors where um we have to be able to


um I mean that's what people who do concept art do so far but less being


focused on the tools and more being focused on what is the output of those particular tools and


um really trying to shape whatever will be the output of those particular tools towards the actual goal which is to


design a character or an environment that has X Y or Z elements in there


um so that role for me doesn't necessarily change but if we see our role as only let's say a roll event


illustrator and our job really isn't to Think Through okay how can character be displayed you know like if you're good


at taking let's say a bio of a particular character that you are given and to think through what are the


elements that could constitute the visual design of that particular um uh character then you


have a lot of value that you can still bring regardless of what tools are being


used now the problem is that today to day you may like it a little bit less if you spend a lot of your time actually


writing prompts as opposed to actually drawing stuff but you can obviously draw things on top of whatever it is it is


the output of those particular prompts um but ultimately like your role is to


imagine what a character will look like and I think you also have a responsibility to figure out in your own


mind what you think a character should look like before you start to jump into using those particular tools because


those particular tools will give you an output that you have a little bit less control over especially in the beginning


um and um if you do a little bit of brainstorming yourself to figure out okay I want character to look like X Y


or Z um before you even start to use those particular tools maybe you keep doing


research um on the side uh maybe you still build yourself a mood board you have a good


idea of where it is that you kind of want to go before you even start to introduce those tools then those tools will actually become more of a tool to


help you realize your vision as opposed to be tools that will give you a vision to which you will uh start to attach


afterwards your own opinion of what the character should should um look like there's so you know I I


think the danger is just to jump to using those tools a little bit too quickly um without having done that particular


reflection ourselves what we would think a character should actually look like um because we want those tools to help


us make our revision come to life we don't want to get those tools to make a vision come to life and then afterward


to ourselves kind of absorb that particular Vision that EI has given us


as what the character should look like there you know so so uh we still have to be masters of the tool we still have to


see our role as art directors in a way that is responsible ultimately for


making our own Vision uh come to life and those are tools there to help us um


on Productions it's awful like there's something interesting about um the legal aspect of AI tools


um where um obviously like depending on the AI tool itself


um it really Falls within a gray Zone whether a studio can't even hold the


rights to the image that are created there like I I I believe uh if I recall correctly


um the U.S government or the U.S copyright office and I'm not sure which is the uh entity


there exactly there's responsible for that but said something along the lines of uh an AI generated image it's not


copyrightable um now hopefully that's not fake news that I read and that's actually true there but um no no I don't know I don't


know if you're uh if you're a studio like I I can't see value for a studio to


say um let's use those AI tools perhaps to prototype the look of something but then


once we know kind of what it is that we want um let's give it afterward to an actual


concept uh artist to do the final uh version of that particular concept so that we we own the actual rights to the


image that we have produced as opposed to just take the uh um output of the AI directly and then


use it as is you know um which I think would be the part that that probably Falls within a great


um Waters there as far as the the legal aspect is a concerned there's going to be a bunch of lawsuits in the future uh


regarding these particular tools and those will probably shape a lot how these tools are particularly used I I


can see a lot of the what you're saying I can see a lot of that happening in


like in like next year and I I have kind of like two perspectives here on the on the things


that you said that um how you kind of advice using this tool is very


similar to what you would say let's say 20 years ago to somebody who would uh


start working with Photoshop right so in Imagine people were kind of doing like acrylic paint or something


and then suddenly they're like okay I'm gonna do this on the screen that's like that's that's not an easy transition


and people would be like okay and I'll try to figure out how do I do this first


on paper then scan it and put it in a computer or something like that or I'm just gonna print it and work with it but


now if you look at the like workflows of just a traditional artists but we don't do that much on an 80 level but if you


just go on YouTube and have a look it's just like it's it's totally different what you would expect when kind of my


daughter sits and she paints with a brush like the Peppa the pig or something right it's it's it's it's


completed there's like a lot of shortcuts there's a lot of elements that are repeating there is a lot of uh


things that are done that are inconceivable in a traditional kind of


like classical I would say workflow that's that's one thing and the other one is


kind of like the legal and ethical aspect the the this thing that you uh that you


talked about is so I I'm uh I think okay so let's say


there is some company out there and they say okay I'm gonna do design similar to like the late uh you


know Michael Andrew Nash so I want to do like you know robotic let's not like


figure out not not animals but something like a robotic thing and they're gonna do it and it's going to be very similar


let's face it it is copying a lot of the like especially if you're throwing the


correct prompts and so on so what do you do with that art like it's really not


that innovative and who knows like whether you can even


publish it or use it in in a project it's fine when you're doing mood boards and you're like trying to find


inspiration but at the end of the day I'm like can you use it


um but that's like Laura is not the not even like the biggest point that I have is but the my biggest thing is and I


keep comp repeating this but people don't seem to kind of comprehend this like this is only happening in a very


small Niche thing that's like you know like illustration


let's say a concept art what's gonna happen when it was the same


speed it's gonna start generating 3D objects or material materials or


anything else because it's it's just it's it's ridiculous how quick this thing is


and I'm thinking uh this is not like this is not like an easy so my previous comparisons was like


photogrammetry or like proceduralism yeah those things kind of speed things up


but this is like a whole nother level this is like bam I have a concert or so


what's going to happen when it's like bam I have like a thousand barrels and I just write it


lots of very interesting things yeah yeah and it's like we're not really


prepared it feels like we're not prepared because people are posting like no to AI art like no to this and that


and for me it's like uh I was like what what like it's like there was a


horse and now there's a carry like there's a a car do you like no no I mean I'll have


horses but like cars are faster and it people I it seems like people don't


really understand what kind of impact this is gonna have on all of us not just games you know what I mean


it goes It goes much Beyond you know if if I just look at my


Facebook feed I would have the impression that somehow AI is only taking over concept art


um but it it is taking over everything right now like I was actually looking at the uh recently you know it was um


Nvidia in September it had their Nvidia uh uh yearly talk where I'm not quite sure what is the name there but um if


you look at their uh uh the video that they had posted in September


they show AI developments tools that go much Beyond 2D Creation in fact I'm not


even sure that 2D creation was even part of that there were showing tools for uh the beginnings of AI tools that would


create 3D models um AI tools that would take uh very rough lidar um images of an


environment and generate a full environment out of that um and so uh and if you go and you check


nvidia's uh um um Omniverse uh website you see that


they also are developing tools that are AI tools to help uh believe uh to write


lyrics for songs or something like that you know and you hear left and right uh AI tools that are now starting to write


music like AI to anything that is digital content creation will eventually


get replaced by AI um just yesterday I believe that you had shared an um article on the 80


um LV about uh open AI uh chatter uh


chat GPT um yeah generating uh python code for


blender someone can just say what kind of code that they want what kind of plugin that they would like for for for


a blender and then the um AI will actually write some code for


that you know so that's going to get taken over as well uh so we think of it in terms of


um I like us who operate within the concept


art 3d art field uh first of all if we do 3D art it is very easy to kind of


look at what's happening on the concept art field and feel like oh okay it's too complicated it's never going to happen to 3D right because 3D you got polygons


you got very cities and you got scale you got rigging and you got skinning and leg is so complicated right it's like no


no it's like this will happen sooner than you actually think uh because it is already um happening there so um


we everyone who does digital content creation of any kind not just


um those who do concept art I think those who do concept art concept art is the canary in the coal mine right now


but uh whatever is happening concept art will happen to every digital content creation


I suppose uh discipline that there is this will come and this will probably come faster than you imagine that it


will be there um and you know it's easy to look at that and and to feel like oh people are


going to lose their job this is really bad we should um boycott this but there's no putting the genie back in the bottle


um if you look at the number of people using mid-journey uh it is it has completely exploded the number of people


using that versus people who do or are interested in uh more traditionally made


uh concepts are there um most of those people's most little people using those particular tools


don't necessarily care that people who do concept art traditionally are losing their jobs you know they only


care about the result and how it is helping them to realize their own vision of something and yeah I kind of


understand that to a certainly agree I mean I I as someone who um right now there's a lot of videos is running a


business uh has a website to run these sorts of things like truth be told I as much as I could feel that AI tools are a


threat and that no one should use those because people are going to lose their job at the same time I kind of am


interested to see what kind of other AI tools can help me run a better business in the sense that you know if I am


editing a a class that I have recorded on 3D creation um I am and typically that might actually


take me a few days to like um um edit a full class or a full um interview there well I am very


interested in AI tools that may help me to speed up that process to maybe cut out the parts of the video where no one


is actually talking and to uh really just just um um cut down the amount of time that it


takes me to um edit a particular class afterwards I'm very interested in those particular


tools um I'm not a musician um but I see value in having music here


and there over certain videos my business is not focused on Music Creation but I see the value in having


um having um uh you know a particular soundtrack of some kind so can AI also kind of help


me to create a soundtrack that um and perhaps even to think about it in the context of doing


um um um can I think of or can there be an AI


that can help me to create a soundtrack that will amplify the educational value


of something right um I could obviously work with a uh with someone who does


um with a composer for that of course but


I could also kind of explore that on my own and if I were for composer then I have to pay a composer and if I have to


pay a composer then I have to increase the amount of money that it costs people that are subscribed on my platform and


so in a way people who whose interest is learning 3D art actually kind of lose to


a certain extent if I have to start hiring people to do things that I could do with um AI there so if you are a 3D artist


sure you can feel threatened by AI but also there are circumstances in which AI


if you are trying to learn 3D um you know if I can lower the price or


keep the price of the membership of my platform down because I use AI tools to help me edit videos faster or create


better educational content if you are someone who is trying to learn 3D character art this is an advantage to you you know so it's not clear that AI


is necessarily always a bad thing um and so


um there's all this kind of Gray Zone left and right and of course if we approach this from our own discipline we


are very biased but if we look at it from a from an external point of view um you know what I've said about website


is kind of the same thing if I need a functionality for my website and I can get AI to write it then ultimately I can


probably lower the cost that it takes me to create the website and which in turn lowers the cost of whoever are paying


members on the platform there right so there are advantages like that uh as


long as uh but those seem like advantages because my focus is not on


being a web um uh developer there it's simply to create better 3D educational content


yeah there's all these kind of appraisals right and we kind of have to look at these tools and their impact a


certain amount of perspective um I think I I think what I hear most


right now and this will this is the video is gonna probably gonna be get published a little bit later so maybe


things are going to change by the time we publish it but um


the main question is like remember like our our previous


kind of ideas about AI we're like okay so maybe it's gonna do like animation


right or it's gonna do like better like joints like whatever like Ubisoft was


doing a lot of research in that or it's gonna help with rendering or or


something right and then suddenly out of all of those kind of more technical Parts it it it did the job which was


considered to be most safe from AI kind of like the creative process in in our


mind and in in a way the algorithm that they're using they're not really creative


they're just kind of like it's a repetition of what was already done it's not really that they're coming up with


some new ideas or or Styles and so on so I'm I'm not sure where the limit to this


is and coming back to like the beginning um of our conversation where you talked


about your experience on Human Revolution is


um there is this grain rate of creative idea look right there


is this lens and I guess if you have that that it doesn't really matter you know


what kind of tools are are out there whether they're from music or therefore


sketches or therefore models right you will just be able to do stuff faster and


kind of be more um kind of intentional with what you're


doing like um my again like sorry about this analogy it it again goes to like


photography like if you go um you're in my vlogging space so you probably know like Sony cameras they


have very good autofocus right they're like they're boom on the spot AE each


time and I I saw a video recently where it was so good that the guy was doing


like uh like a dance he was like on his back twirling his feet in the air


and the camera got like the the his leg right the focus on his like like


automatically that was kind of like scary stuff right but at the same time you go to like


people who are shooting film right now it's like Resurgence right Carter is


selling more more film than ever and they're like no no I'm gonna take my


time I know how this works I'm gonna take a tripod I'm gonna put a camera there I'm gonna be like super deliberate


about my composition choice and so on so I feel like what's happening with AI is


sort of like what Sony's doing with autofocus right so it's like super quick and fast and every picture is like ideal


and but at the same time people still gravitate to kind of like messy


you know stuff that's not perfect and especially in games this is also what I


learned like through through my career games films you know books what what whatever


uh I don't want to sound esoteric or anything now because I'm not that kind of person but there is a certain level


of magic happening in those projects and consumers uh they feel it they


understand that when we're when we're looking at even like this year I I have


let's say in the next question but I don't want to jump into it like they feel that there is something going on


there and I just I don't have like a vision in my head where every single


thing is going to be generated with AI which is not that it's going to be artificial but it's going to be like a


secondary like a a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy right and


suddenly it's gonna be like a huge success I just don't like consumers are just not going to be into


it and therefore you know companies are not going to fund it so yeah yeah I don't know how popular this


is of an opinion but like I personally speaking okay like I get very disinterested when I


give me the exact same picture one has been generated by um Ai and the other one I know has been


made by human I will be inherently more interested in one that has been made by um a human because I care about


um thinking through okay what was their thought reasoning behind putting down detail XYZ


um and so like the human aspect for me is a big part of why I consume Mark to begin with


um and so AI cannot replicate that it could replicate the exact same image let's say but knowing


as someone who loves to consume artistic media it is the intent of the Whoever has


created that media that ultimately is what makes me interested in that media to begin with you know like if you think


of movies right um I love Christopher Nolan movies I just love them and I


don't care what kind of AI tools could generate movies I'm still going to want to watch a movie by Christopher Nolan


because it came out of his mind right that's what I care it's like I want to see what he makes because I find that it


is interesting to Think Through what he like imagine myself what was he thinking through when he made a particular movie


when he made a particular choice somewhere that's personally what I uh enjoy the most out of uh art itself so


it's not as much about the artistic or rather um I can't in my mind dissociate the uh


human aspect that has gone into creating a piece of art um


from the art itself you know uh the art itself you we can make pretty pictures but if I know that it has been made by


an um AI somehow I I I lose interest quickly I can't acknowledge that it's


nice but I lose interest because I lose the human aspect of it um I think for me that that part will


probably always stay there like even if you have Aida can generate an infinite amount of um images I think you know we


as humans or at least I I like to think that this is what will happen in the future I certainly don't know but I like


to have I like to think that um you know we will all still be interested in personalities we will


still be interested in people we will still want to follow people that create content that we care about


um because uh you know there is an Infinity of music


that I can already listen to on Spotify there is literally anything I could ever want to listen to is there but I still


gravitate to listen to a few um artists that I care about because there's just something about the work that they are


doing that really um interests me and I'm interested in anything that they will be doing in the future so I'm following them if they


release a new song they're releasing new um album I'm I'm interested in it because it has been created by them you


know and and so I hope that that part stays there I I don't know that that will necessarily be the case but


um you know AI won't necessarily change how I like to consume art because


the fact that art has been created by human is such a fundamental part of why I enjoy that art to begin with


yeah and it's also everywhere like if you look at the when people think about concept art


they're like okay some people are going to lose jobs but the idea of the concept there is actually everywhere


like everything was concept art at some every product like every car was at some


point in time as catch on uh on a piece of paper and the the question


is like do we want to Trust kind of like computer generating


algorithms so much that we're just gonna like Outsource all of that


kind of Niche creative stuff to whatever is Prada going to say okay let's fire


all those nasty designers we're just gonna do computers gonna generate the new because they can the computer can't


right so it's not like rocket science but I feel like the magic is going to be


missing and uh I it's at least this is the belief I'd like to clean on like


before whatever happens next um it happens right and then we'll see it's


again it's like the the level of uncertainty so high right now so it's just like I think it's we're just kind


of like you know making discussions and sharing opinions yeah but we don't


really know Oreos we don't really know so let's switch gears a little bit so we're going to publish this probably in


January so let's imagine that we are in January and the 2022 is behind us


and the the question is because um again sorry to jump the copy so I I


actually learned about Laura and your channel and your school from reaction videos you're posting


those reaction videos where you saw like the horizon horizon game or like the other


game it was like I thought like wow that's that's fun like the the person who was actually doing those things he's


like reacting to the the trailers and the checking out the character artwork so my question for


you in 2022 what were kind of the projects the games


that you felt um kind of are not noteworthy right I


I'm not saying like game of the year I'm not talking about from that like an email like a gamer perspective but look


from from your life it they can be published they could be published


anywhere but maybe there are some projects that kind of you know made a real big influence on your kind of


surprise you in a way yeah yeah I have to um uh uh I I have to say something that


that might uh not sound all that great but I haven't actually played that many games in 2022


um a big reason why I haven't played a lot of games although I did play some games but


um a big reason why I haven't played that many games in 2022 was because um it's been actually a pretty big Focus


for me in 2022 and in 2021 as well to try to reach a better work-life balance for myself


um I had uh and I've publicly said in the past I have left Gorilla Games because of a burnout that I have done


there um I've recorded my thoughts in a YouTube video on that particular topic and


I've kind of realized uh through time that um it is impossible to do everything that


we want to do in life right there are just too many things that we want to do we have to start to prioritize what it


is that we want to do and we have to be we have to be willing to let go of certain things that matter a little bit less to us


um and if we care about living a long life if we care about living a healthy life we have to start to make some very


hard choices as to how we spend our time um and for me part of that was uh


focusing more on sleep focusing more on better healthy habits in in in a general


and a lot of that came from cutting out some of the times that I would be spending playing video games to instead


uh do physical um activity or try to uh try to Simply


simply clean up my sleep hygiene um


and but also to try to find pleasure in life in those other activities which I


think is is extremely important right um I'm kind of doing a big attention and


I'll come back to the question that you've uh asked her but um


one thing that I have kind of figured out is that if I do want to start to develop healthier habits and for those


habits to stick around I have to figure find things that I find enjoyable in those habits that I'm trying to change


so I've been playing a lot less video games and I've been doing a lot more bouldering instead which is physical


um activity where you try to climb walls that are typically five uh five meters


in height and it goes with varying levels of difficulty so there are very


easy walls to climb there are very hard walls to climb in all cases it is like a


solving a puzzle or it is I like to think about it as in uh if we had Dark


Souls but Dark Souls was a physical activity of some kind what would it actually be and it would be bouldering


because it is trying to solve very hard problems onto which uh you fall and so


quote unquote die although of course you don't die uh when you do a bouldering there but you certainly fail quite a lot


which teaches you to get back on your feet to try again and to eventually


succeed and get that satisfaction so I've been doing a lot of bouldering so I I look at it as a real life video game


uh because of its similarities to playing games there it kind of tickles uh or it takes the same boxes for me so


uh that that has been my game of the year uh and


um it has allowed me to find pleasure in doing physical


um exercise there um so I've been doing quite a lot of that um other than that I've been playing and


I've been trying to uh get a lot better and trying to finish um um Elden ring uh that's that's been the


game of the year for me as far as I'm concerned as far as actual video games is concerned I'm like 200 hours in and


I'm not even sure how far the and is uh so I've been playing quite a lot of that so far that's been my 2022 uh certainly


my game of the year I have a long list of games that I I wish that I will be able to play soon including God of War


uh Kalisto a protocol has had some of the most amazing Graphics that I've seen


um so that is certainly uh one of the highlights of 2022 for me um


also uh um a few other smaller games or uh


riskier games perhaps uh I find it very interesting that there was a game that came out now if this is uh something


that is uh not safe for work uh in any sort of way as far as your podcast is concerned feel free to cut this out but


I thought that high on life was very very interesting uh as a game uh because it's like okay like let's do a game that


like like I think that the uh the the the driving idea behind the game was uh


can we make a game for people who like to consume marijuana which is a very interesting uh it's not something that I


had seen before so just seeing the direction that they took with that particular game I think is kind of interesting uh that game was created by


the uh the creative um um oh gosh I forget the name of uh the


show there um the show with the scientist and the uh small kid Rick and


Morty thank you um I also thought that uh there was a game called the wandering Village uh that was actually at uhm I think that


won the game of the year for uh def cam this year uh very very interesting game uh has a very nice mix of 2D and 3D uh


where they're really using uh I think both 2D and 3D art uh simultaneously and


and really getting them uh using both medium uh in its um for for its um


advantages uh and doing a really nice mix between these two things there so the one the wandering Village was very


interesting high in life was interesting for its originality uh in 2022


um but on the uh as far as gameplay is concerned for me um Elden ring is definitely the top top


um game there and Visually speaking um Kalisto protocol and uh God of War Ragnarok yeah I mean I didn't again


saying basically says same train of thought as yours like I I don't play


that much because I have other stuff basically unfortunately or fortunately and


um the only game I did kind of like submit it to it was Alden ring


I played like we have to submit ourselves to this game yes yeah yeah no I mean I I got like maybe 140 160 hours


and that's like it is a so immense


it is such a I don't even understand how it is possible to build something like that of that scope


because it feels it felt like there was like it was Game of the Year Edition of a game that that was never released you


know like with all the DLCs and additional content that would have you such a deep incredible ride like I love


that game like that was like for me it's like the Pinnacle of like what the soul series was and kind of like reinvention


and that guy is a genius like Miyazaki is like he's like serious


genius material like I'm I'm thinking about okay like Kojima is super smart


dude obviously like very good with gameplay this guy is like I feel like he's on another level he's just like


it's it's insane what that guy's doing so Laura thank you so much for sharing


and especially the kind of these these things about sleep physical activity just kind of


doing just normal human stuff right that it's


kind of like also don't people can really talk about it but maybe like with the was the whole AI


thing and let's all hope we keep our jobs and we'll be maybe we'll have more


time to just kind of like chill you know I I go to Europe people are just sitting there you know drinking


coffee and whatever it's not like us where it's like you you go to work at seven a.m you


come back at 7 pm and it's like you collapse and then you watch TV and then


you fall asleep so I hope we'll have more time just like as a as a communal


whatever uh have just more time to enjoy ourselves and to enjoy life and have


more fun I guess in in all the different ways but um


what's your take in general about like 2023 what what do you what do you expect


like in in terms of industry in terms of maybe your career in terms of maybe your


business maybe your school uh I don't know what to expect but I I


think we should all be ready to expect the um unexpected because I believe that


2023 tools only like AI development will only develop itself faster and faster


you know like we used to look like only a few months back this year we used to look at Mid journey and kind of look at


it and say like oh yeah but everything it does is within the same art style and uh it can't even do hands properly any


sorts of things and before we knew it these things were actually solved um so expect the um unexpected um I


think we all have a deep reflection to go through as far as what is the value that we bring Society to the Productions


on which we work how can we maximize that if we find a way to find a value if


we figure out what is the value that we truly bring I think that um uh I think that that um


that protects us against uh AI as something that will replace our job


um so yeah 2023 will be uh will be an interesting year because 2022 was the


year where all these tools really came to our minds uh collectively and 2023 I


believe will be the year where this really starts to have very uh


um a lot of practical uh usage uh it will really start to have a really


practical impact you know like it it takes time for Productions to change their tools you know like a production


isn't even if a new tool becomes promising it production isn't necessarily going to change the tools that they use Midway because that


introduces a very high degree of risk um they might start to experiment with tools but they're not fundamentally going to change their production Midway


right like you don't stop production of a movie just to restart it because there are now certainly um AI tools that can


help you out there you finish what you have started um using the tools that you have started because uh you want to reduce the amount


of risk and you want to make sure that you are getting the job done within the time that you have there but as these Productions that perhaps have not used


those AI tools so far start to wrap up and start to look into whatever will be


the next Productions that they will work on and whatever will be the tools that they will work on I think that we will start to see uh this tectonic shift of


uh more AI tools being used left and right uh I I would would be a fool to


try to predict anything as far as how it will impact things or how much it will be used but


um I think as we have said at the beginning it is inevitable that these tools will get better will get used more


and we have to adapt to that um so myself you know like I I keep


thinking about okay what is the impact that I can have on the world uh how can I maximize the impact that I can have


and like I I will be completely completely Frank with you I kind of figured out that the impact the bigger


impact that I can have and how to make that particular impact is not to do 3D um anymore so I I I don't do a lot of


um 3D I wish I I would but if I you know


if I had let's say a block of um let's say I have a week that's free I


can either spend that week doing 3D art um and produce something cool out of


that or I can spend that week talking to people interviewing people trying to figure out how they create 3D art


um and um produce something that will be useful for the world based on that afterward


right so I'm kind of already looking at a time that I have for you and thinking okay what is the biggest impact that I can have with that particular time and


for me it means de-prioritizing doing 3D because I think that there are other things that I can


do that will have a bigger impact instead so I'm I'm kind of always looking at the at the world at the time


that I have read through that particular lens um I hope like you that AI tools eventually


allow us to enjoy life a little bit more but I am also kind of concerned that um


um tools that make us more efficient do not necessarily mean that we


certainly have better work-life balance it may simply mean that we have more things to do


um you know like it's very easy to finish something and then start the next thing afterward and if


you can finish something faster then suddenly you have more projects that are um ongoing at the same time so


efficiency and productivity like being more productive doesn't necessarily mean that we have more free time we have to


make that choice that that is a very conscious choice we have to do ourselves to say okay I will stop working I will


put work aside and I will do something else with my time um and so


um it you know at its base is a a reflection that we all have to do with


how much do we value our own free time first of all and what do we want to do with that free time


um and tools can help us to liberate more free time but we have to make sure that we are actually truly using tools


uh that are out there as a way to reduce our workload so that we ourselves have


afterward time to do other things than work you know we have to make that very deliberate conscious reflection that


conscious choice um as opposed to just say uh which I think might be something a little bit


more um automatic uh oh well I have time to wrap up a 3D model faster so I'll just start the next one faster you know


because then you're you're still using as much of your time to do work you're just going through work a little bit faster


but you're not necessarily um giving yourself a better work-life balance there so that's something that I


myself also will continue to I wanted to do like a like a little flash ball with you


so like short questions just to kind of get the blood going you


don't need to do like uh super high level answers just to kind of like get an idea and kind of talk a


little bit so uh what's your favorite game of all time


favorite game of all time that's a hard question every time I try to think about that question I come up with a different answer but it's usually Super Metroid


so on the opposite what is like the most


underrated lesser-known game that you think the world should know about


these are hard questions I could think about this for like 30 minutes uh the most underrated game that


people should know about wow that is such a um this might come across as a surprise but


off the top of my head I would say Journey I think Journey has quite a lot of uh it


has a very strong message as to trying to get to the destination but what happens if you ultimately get there


um and that it is as the name implies it is the journey that matters more I mean it's not an underrated game necessarily


but it's one of those Niche game that probably not enough people know about and it's also one of the games that I I


it makes me um see game making


as an art form as opposed to as an entertainment phone form on which we tack art on top of for me journey is a


piece of art and I'm not sure I can necessarily say that about most games yeah so two more questions so what did


your so what do your parents think about your career as a game developer do they like


it or not like it or like what's their five well my mom just wants me to be


happy in life and that's what I am doing video games so she's quite happy for me my father was hard to convince because


he's part of the older generation who sees games as a kid's toy uh and did not


really see the value in that at the beginning it was it was actually quite hard to convince him to uh fund uh 3D


school for me because uh he's actually the one who had co-science uh my loan so that I could go to Santana in the


Montreal to study 3D art it was hard to get him to to give us him to do that but I think at some point he just saw the


fire that I had within my eyes and he decided to trust me on that but yeah that was not an easy thing


Zoom or quake oh Doom


all right well I think those are uh great answers and you can really feel


the passion that you have for games even like from our little discussion about the journey because I really like that


game as well and this is the kind of game that I would show to my mom and my mom is also like an older


generation my dad is like 90 so it's very hard to explain to them I try to think sorry to cut you out


there I try to think like what games would I put in a game Museum you know like a game like if there was a museum


somewhere of like games that we think are like actual art pieces that we want the world to show uh to know about and


to see and to preserve for the future for me Journey would definitely be one of those that I I would I would certainly and it's kind of fun to see


how you know that that game company the the company who created the journey and flower and all those other projects


how they can keep Reinventing everything because their their games are always


like about flow kind of like movement it's like very kind of like about this almost


meditative kind of uh State and in their last game I think it's called sky right


or something they they kind of turned it around and it's kind of like now uh a very massive


um mobile game now it's like on consoles and it's also free to play so it's kind


of like this weird shift where it's still very artsy and it it looks nice


but it's also kind of like successfully a super successful financially which is


like something that you you don't always say about the you know when you when you talk about like hard games and and so on


so I think this is a perfect kind of answer to and the perfect ending to the podcast is


just like take care of yourself people and think about your time because it is


limited unlike Ai and the projects the time on this Earth is limited so do the


most out of it Laura I want to thank you so much for your time uh thank you for spending this hour with us uh we'll


leave the links in the description so you could people can check out your channel check out your school there's a


ton of info there so you'd be amazed and yeah thank you so much and I hope we'll


talk next year thank you I hope so too thank you thanks for enjoying another


episode of the 80 level Roundtable podcast check out upcoming episodes on


the 80 level website at 80. LV join our career site at 80.lv RFP


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(Cont.) The Art of Being an Artist in the Age of AI with Laura from Outgang - 80 Level Podcast