[Music]
0:31
okay my name is Stephen kick and I'm the
0:34
CEO of nighttime Studios
0:39
and we specialize in remastering Lost
0:42
classic games that you can no longer
0:44
play on Modern computers and consoles
0:47
and other platforms I'm Larry cooperman
0:50
I'm the Director of Business Development
0:51
for night dive Studios
0:57
Larry so tell us about how how you got
1:01
into this company
1:03
um
1:03
I uh my career in games I've been in the
1:06
games industry for uh 22 years now
1:10
started off working at stardock had a a
1:15
brief time over at uh at GameStop as
1:18
their uh as their head of uh digital
1:21
publishing um during during uh the the
1:25
period between 2011 and 2013 and then
1:29
after leaving GameStop I really wanted
1:32
to get back into a company that was
1:34
creative and I knew night dive Studios
1:37
reputation and reached out contacted
1:40
Steve kick and
1:42
10 years later here we are so tell us a
1:46
little bit about this concept of uh of
1:48
remasters because
1:49
um if you look even like the launch
1:52
lineups of certain consoles you see
1:56
basically remasters as one of the launch
1:58
titles right and it seems like there's
2:00
this huge interest in
2:04
Nostalgia you know in the older games
2:06
and so why is this happening then would
2:09
you feel like the current generation of
2:12
games just does not satisfy the consumer
2:14
or do you feel like you know there's
2:17
just the consumer it's a little bit
2:18
grown up and they want to relieve those
2:20
experiences that they had you know years
2:22
ago well I think it's a combination of
2:24
like all those things there are a lot of
2:27
people that are my age that grew up
2:29
playing these games that find it
2:30
familiar and nostalgic and want to
2:33
relive it but with you know next-gen
2:35
graphics on their ps5s or their Xbox
2:37
Ones or or whatever and uh on the
2:41
business side of things I think it's
2:43
just a much easier business decision to
2:45
do something that's known to have sold
2:48
well as opposed to putting a lot of risk
2:50
in an unknown IP which typically will
2:53
take a lot more
2:55
money to familiarize your audience with
2:59
so it's it's an easy choice
3:04
so when we think about demand for these
3:09
kind of titles can you talk a little bit
3:12
about who's buying those games uh how
3:16
much are they willing to pay uh what's
3:18
like what are they getting out of it
3:21
because it's like uh I mean you can go
3:23
and Gog and probably download the older
3:25
uh System Shock and just play with that
3:28
like how what are those in fact we
3:30
published that so yes you absolutely
3:32
absolutely can't do that
3:33
um I I think that I think that there are
3:36
are multiple portions of the demographic
3:38
that that we serve
3:40
um Steve who you interviewed before
3:42
um played a lot of these games with with
3:44
his father
3:45
um that was part of his his kind of
3:47
coming of age and this is something that
3:49
that he and his dad did together well I
3:51
had the uh the other side of that
3:53
experience I was playing some of these
3:55
games with my son
3:57
um who's who's a grown man now
4:00
um and you know games like like Turok we
4:03
played on on PC you know originally when
4:06
it when it came out so that was a shared
4:09
experience that we had
4:11
um very early on before my son was uh
4:14
was even his teenage years we were we
4:17
were hooking up um two computers
4:19
um you know pre-internet so that we
4:21
could play a land game of of Doom you
4:25
would not have been able to tell me all
4:27
those years ago that um that that that
4:29
I'd be working for a company that would
4:31
bring back Doom 64. so that was kind of
4:34
cool
4:35
um so we have a we have a young uh what
4:38
I would consider a young demographic I'm
4:40
probably probably mature demographic of
4:43
people that remember playing those games
4:44
from their childhood we have an older
4:47
demographic that played those games in
4:49
many cases either as individuals or with
4:52
their children and then we have another
4:54
demographic that's that's really uh
4:57
positive for us which is which is really
4:59
young people who never got a chance to
5:01
play the games in the first case it's
5:03
amazing how much I see on on forums I
5:06
see posts from people that begin with
5:09
saying well I've heard all about System
5:10
Shock but I never had a chance to play
5:12
it before so I'm really looking forward
5:14
to this
5:15
can you tell us a little bit about what
5:17
do BD
5:19
do for these kind of like product
5:21
oriented uh because you had this
5:23
experience at game slot and this is more
5:25
like a platform like a service thing
5:26
yeah and this is like a different taste
5:28
absolutely so um my my job duties are I
5:31
uh I talk about being outward facing I
5:34
work with a lot of our our partners
5:37
um so I manage those partner
5:39
relationships
5:40
um but because we're also a small
5:42
company I am very much Hands-On
5:45
um with the development of our kex
5:48
engine games
5:49
um some of which are are pretty well
5:50
known uh we've done development work for
5:52
companies like Bethesda Doom 64 and
5:55
Quake and we've also partnered with
5:58
companies like NBC Universal for whom we
6:01
do the tour Rock series of games so I
6:03
manage those relationships but I also
6:06
will communicate back to our development
6:08
teams and make sure that what we're
6:11
doing
6:11
aligns with what our our partners
6:14
interests are at the same time
6:16
so what are the when you talk about
6:19
Partners what Partners do you actually
6:21
need if you want to ship
6:23
a game today that is not online that is
6:27
not multiplayer it's kind of like old
6:29
school and has this big franchise behind
6:32
it but it's kind of like you know not a
6:34
fresh thing well so first of all um
6:36
first of all you really need to have
6:38
great relationships with um our
6:41
distribute distribution Partners
6:43
um for us uh that would include
6:46
companies our our oldest partner is
6:48
gog.com gog.com
6:50
um they're certainly where where the
6:52
company started off and we still work
6:53
with them very closely steam of course
6:56
epic but also Microsoft Sony Nintendo
7:00
those are those are our major Partners
7:03
on the distribution side
7:05
um and then uh
7:08
other than other than what it referred
7:10
to as clients
7:11
um we have also had a great relationship
7:13
working with the team at Epic the unreal
7:17
team over there and uh let me just uh
7:19
say that when we've had technical
7:21
questions when we've needed support for
7:23
the Unreal Engine for a game like system
7:25
shop epic has always been a really good
7:28
partner for us to work with so talking
7:31
about this um
7:33
basically what stands behind this
7:35
franchise when you talk with big
7:37
companies they're saying
7:39
basically having a fun project
7:41
is kind of like
7:43
a key to hiring great people basically
7:47
if you have a you know if you're working
7:48
on God of War it's much easier to hire
7:51
great senior Talent than if you're doing
7:53
something you know completely original
7:55
and uh studios in California they do
7:58
leverage that like the you know to the
8:00
fullest uh what about you like you're
8:02
get you're having this incredible
8:04
franchise that has been around for years
8:07
and there's like this incredible
8:09
um you know fan base how do you approach
8:11
it does it help you hire new Talent do
8:15
you do you hunt for you guys at all like
8:17
how does that work that's a really great
8:19
question because as you may know
8:22
nighttime Studios has always been a
8:23
remote studio and we've been that way
8:25
for 10 years and when you talk to AAA
8:30
and they say oh we've we hire the best
8:33
it's not necessarily true they can hire
8:35
the best within the people that live
8:38
within that studio
8:40
whereas we can truly go all over the
8:43
world and hire the best people because
8:44
there's no requirement for them to to
8:46
you know pull up their roots and move
8:49
so that's a really big factor in in how
8:52
System Shock has turned out the way it
8:53
is is we have literally hired the best
8:55
people the most passionate people who
8:57
love the game more than anyone else
8:59
and um
9:01
it's you know the benefit of working
9:03
with an IP like that is they've come to
9:04
us in most cases or we've been able to
9:08
hire via Word of Mouth you know if we
9:11
hire an artist and they recommend
9:12
somebody else
9:13
chances are they're going to be really
9:15
good so it's taking a lot of the stress
9:17
out for us having to find and locate
9:20
people
9:21
when you think about uh platforms and
9:24
companies like Sony and then many others
9:28
um
9:29
are they more like um
9:32
you know there's this idea of like four
9:34
competitive uh forces that influence you
9:37
and the idea is that the consumer is
9:39
basically your competitor suppliers
9:41
basically are compared everybody's
9:42
trying to uh come and kill you like when
9:45
your work with platforms
9:47
do they help more uh especially like in
9:51
these environments right now like when
9:52
you talk with Sony do they give you like
9:55
a feature why is it important to have
9:58
this relationship so so first of all you
10:01
know you're working in terms of of
10:02
development right you you may need to
10:04
reach out to Sony for questions on on
10:07
how to how to optimize a particular game
10:10
for Playstation you might have a problem
10:13
that you need to reach out to them help
10:15
them help get their help to resolve the
10:17
technical side then the the other side
10:19
of it is once the game is complete
10:21
you're going to be working with that
10:23
same partner different people within
10:25
that organization but you're going to be
10:26
working with that same partner on
10:28
distribution and and marketing side of
10:30
it so it's a it's a funny relationship
10:32
you're working with them before the game
10:34
is made during the the period where the
10:36
game is is in creation and then working
10:39
with a completely different group of
10:40
people but at the same organization once
10:43
the game is complete and you're getting
10:44
it out to the public
10:46
so it's a it's a complicated
10:47
relationship which is why there's always
10:50
a room for people like me to navigate
10:52
that what are the things that the
10:54
platforms can do to help you basically
10:57
push more copies like how do you work
10:59
with them in order to and also like
11:01
maybe as an advice to other devs who are
11:04
trying to do it like what can you do to
11:06
make it more successful well that's also
11:08
a great question
11:09
um I will tell you one of uh one of The
11:11
Shining Moments uh in in night Dives
11:14
past
11:15
um was when we we first our first
11:17
console launches um which was a tourak
11:20
and tourak II launched on the Xbox
11:22
platform
11:24
um Microsoft was was keenly aware that
11:27
we were a small Studio that we were
11:28
first first working on that
11:30
um we had we had great relationships we
11:32
have a dedicated partner manager over
11:35
there Glenn Gregory and Glenn was was
11:38
really instrumental in getting those
11:40
games streamed the day that they
11:42
released on Xbox
11:44
um onto both the the Xbox oxide they
11:47
have multiple sites and and so they they
11:49
really cover that and we saw a
11:50
tremendous lift
11:52
um in in both awareness and um and in
11:55
sales
11:57
um from the as a as a result of the
11:59
partnership work that that Microsoft did
12:01
was we've done similar things with um
12:04
PlayStation
12:05
um we're very active in participating in
12:08
PlayStation sponsored sales and uh and
12:11
from uh Nintendo Nintendo has been an
12:14
absolutely great partner for us to work
12:16
with
12:17
um the reception uh for our bringing
12:20
some of the old N64 titles back and and
12:24
putting them on switch has been
12:26
absolutely great
12:27
um I have been remiss in one partner
12:30
that I didn't mention and I probably
12:32
should have um there's still a huge
12:34
appetite for a Collector's Edition in
12:37
retail boxes of of our games and uh and
12:40
we work pretty closely with the team
12:42
over at limited run games that's also
12:44
been a great partnership for us
12:46
let's talk a little bit about the kind
12:49
of the business side of it like how do
12:51
you
12:53
if you are distributed in the game if
12:56
you're kind of going to Market
12:59
do you work with a publisher do you
13:01
prefer to work alone what is like the
13:04
what are the trade-offs here and there
13:06
uh typically all of our other games have
13:08
been self-published
13:09
and but with System Shock remake we're
13:11
working with PlayOn they're our first
13:14
publisher kind of in this space and and
13:16
we really needed their expertise to help
13:18
us navigate you know some of the
13:20
intricacies that we haven't experienced
13:21
before like localizing the game in 14
13:24
different languages is something that we
13:26
haven't had experience with that they
13:28
were tremendously helpful with
13:30
also a big marketing push so that more
13:34
people knew what was going on that we
13:36
were making the game was very essential
13:38
to us and and they've been amazing in
13:41
providing those services
13:44
and then just uh you know quality of
13:46
life stuff like providing exceptional QA
13:49
teams to help us track down bugs and
13:52
ensure that the end user experience is
13:55
as smooth as possible
13:57
do you feel like it's worth it like
13:58
having the published because there's
14:00
refshare involved and it's not like
14:01
they're working for free right yeah I
14:04
mean there's definitely a trade-off I
14:05
mean we're going to be publishing and
14:07
shipping a much better game than
14:11
um than without them
14:13
and uh I mean there is a cost associated
14:15
with that but we felt like it was a fair
14:17
a fair trade all right cool
14:21
so when we talk about these IPS
14:25
there is this
14:27
um there are like when I talk with guys
14:29
who are doing business like BD or people
14:31
who are
14:32
um they're saying that basically acquire
14:34
an IP is not that you know it's not that
14:38
big of an investment but sometimes it
14:40
can be like
14:41
50 000 bucks or something and you you
14:44
got like yourself like a he-man license
14:46
or something like that if if the IP is
14:49
not really hot if there's like no TV
14:52
show around it if there's like no you
14:54
know animation series and Netflix is not
14:55
interested then it's easier kind of like
14:57
to do this deal can you talk a little
14:59
bit about this you know market for these
15:02
IPS because this is a very interesting
15:04
I'm sure there's a lot of companies who
15:05
want to
15:07
you know dip their toes figure out how
15:09
it works
15:11
um give us a little bit of a background
15:12
like how does that how do you do it
15:14
well we would typically start looking
15:16
for games that we played when we were
15:18
kids that we wanted to enjoy again or we
15:21
wanted to reintroduce to a new
15:23
generation and so a lot of those IPS are
15:26
things that hadn't been touched for
15:27
quite some time and the price tag on
15:30
them kind of reflected that and so it
15:32
was a lot easier for us to go in and and
15:34
say hey this is something that a lot of
15:37
people used to love and there's a lot of
15:40
fandom's still surrounding it but you
15:43
haven't done anything with it for a
15:44
while so if you entrust us with us we
15:47
can not only add value to it but we can
15:51
we can bring it back so that the
15:53
community can kind of rally around it
15:54
again and we can rebuild that what do
15:57
you think what do you think this happens
15:59
like when you have these um you have
16:02
this IP like System Shock which is like
16:04
if you go on any list anywhere and
16:07
immersion Sims they're going to be
16:08
system strong because I'm either a
16:10
number one or a number two it's like
16:12
there's no way around it and at the same
16:14
time people are
16:16
you know not doing anything about it or
16:18
they're trying to you know reinvent the
16:21
wheel a lot of times and uh
16:24
a lot of times they fail because
16:26
sometimes there's like there's some kind
16:28
of magic there that it's not you know
16:30
reliable
16:31
yeah why is this happening that's a
16:34
really good question too because I would
16:36
a lot of what made System Shock great
16:39
obviously to the developers but looking
16:42
glass was really special because pretty
16:44
much everybody that made up that DNA
16:46
came from somewhere other than games I
16:48
mean in the early 90s it was hard to
16:50
find somebody who was well versed or
16:52
well experienced in making games and so
16:55
a lot of their talent came from people
16:58
in like the pharmaceutical industry or
17:01
um from a higher education specifically
17:05
you had a lot of people on their team
17:06
with phds in physics that type of thing
17:10
and when they got together to make a
17:12
game
17:12
they came away with lightning in a
17:14
bottle and something that I mean to my
17:17
opinion anyways has never really been
17:19
replicated
17:21
you've funny you should mention this I
17:23
didn't actually know that there were
17:25
like uh a bunch of guys from different
17:27
Industries so sort of like which is
17:29
saying basically the versatility of the
17:33
genre that they basically invented right
17:34
it comes from kind of the mindset of
17:37
people who were doing it and they were
17:40
they were not really thinking and
17:42
outside the box they were thinking like
17:43
a normal you know terms as a human being
17:46
should be thinking not kind of
17:47
restricted by the rules that the you
17:51
know virtual world is kind of pushing on
17:53
you yeah and they were trying to
17:54
recreate basically reality in this uh
17:57
entertainment package yeah and you just
18:01
don't see that much anymore because a
18:03
lot of the people are making games now
18:04
are people like me we grew up playing
18:06
them and so a lot of our experience and
18:09
our inspiration comes from games that
18:11
have already been made as opposed to
18:14
outside influences like what you know
18:17
the secret sauce would have been at
18:19
Looking Glass
18:21
um one of the one of the things that we
18:23
really found interesting about bringing
18:25
on one of the original developers Rob
18:27
Waters who is the the artist back then
18:30
was that he spent his whole career
18:32
working in games but he doesn't really
18:33
play them
18:34
and he doesn't really digest the same
18:38
media that everybody else does and so
18:40
his artistic vision is
18:43
I guess for the lack of a better term
18:44
it's very pure and so we have something
18:47
that's very unique at the same time and
18:49
I think when you play The System Shock
18:52
remake it really shines through
18:54
so let's talk about System Shock in
18:57
particular because this is one of the
18:59
big titles that you're working on right
19:00
now
19:01
um
19:02
there are two aspects when I think about
19:04
remake and remaster
19:06
and I I think this is
19:09
in the in those words right so you think
19:12
about remasters basically like a like a
19:15
facelift like the better graphics you
19:18
know it supports modern systems when
19:20
we're talking about remake there are
19:22
some some improvements I guess to it
19:24
like and so so where do you kind of
19:26
stand there like do you feel like those
19:29
games
19:30
that are older they need really to go
19:32
into the systems do you need to go into
19:34
like interfaces and some other bits and
19:37
pieces to kind of make them you know
19:39
make the necessary quality of life
19:42
improvements to make them kind of more
19:44
attractive to a current user or do you
19:47
feel like you just need to you know run
19:48
it through you know a couple of very
19:51
good artists they remake the textures
19:53
and it's good to go I think it really
19:55
depends on the game
19:57
um a lot of us have played games in the
19:59
past where you know the first time we
20:02
played them it was it was wonderful it
20:03
was state of the art but we go back and
20:05
we revisit it now and yeah like it's a
20:08
little buggy it's a little janky it
20:09
doesn't play as smoothly as we all
20:11
remember it uh we run into frustrating
20:14
game design issues and I think that one
20:17
of the things that we do specifically
20:19
when we revisit these remasters is we go
20:21
back and we evaluate all that and we
20:23
make those changes just to smooth out
20:26
the presentation and to take those bumps
20:28
and those boards off so that you're left
20:30
with something that feels more modern
20:32
and smooth and probably more closer to
20:34
how you remember it being than it
20:35
actually being
20:37
and uh you know with a with a complete
20:40
remake we're starting from from Ground
20:41
Zero essentially and we're rebuilding a
20:44
game from scratch and so that leaves us
20:46
with a lot more room to change and alter
20:50
things while also hopefully keeping with
20:53
the spirit of the original
20:55
you know what when I think about System
20:57
Shock in particular in my experience is
21:00
um kind of those drawbacks when you look
21:03
at it now and you it's kind of like an
21:05
old game and this you know I wouldn't
21:08
say bucket but it's
21:09
it has a certain level of how how you
21:12
play it right yeah
21:14
um it's janky yeah
21:16
um when I look at it now I feel like
21:18
this was part of the experience
21:20
basically like this horror of your like
21:23
being compressed in this uh space and
21:26
you're you're I was literally afraid to
21:28
open the door and proceed the sound as
21:32
well it's just kind of pushes like on
21:34
your psyche and you're just sitting
21:35
there you're afraid to move
21:37
do you feel like you can replicate that
21:39
and maybe you probably do like how do
21:41
you replicate this and and when you're
21:43
doing the the Remake well we wanted to
21:46
all be as close to the original as
21:49
possible but while giving the player you
21:52
know new things to experience and
21:55
replicating again that that atmosphere
21:57
of horror and that tension was really
21:59
important to us and so we felt that the
22:02
combination of the level design uh the
22:05
lighting and the sound was was more
22:07
important than restricting the player's
22:10
ability to kind of move and interact
22:12
with the environment
22:13
and that's one of the biggest things
22:15
that people talk about in their
22:17
inability to kind of enjoy the original
22:18
is that it's just hard to navigate and
22:22
that was by Design originally but it was
22:25
also during a time where all the
22:27
developers were just trying to figure
22:28
out the best way to allow the player to
22:30
interact with their worlds and so no one
22:34
um kind of
22:36
standard had been decided upon yet and
22:39
now with the you know 30 years of
22:42
experience behind us we're all familiar
22:44
like you know the analog sticks are
22:46
going to make you look up and down and
22:47
and move and you know if you deviate
22:50
from that it's going to upset people
22:53
and so there's a standard that we've
22:56
applied with the Remake that will enable
22:59
people to still play
23:00
essentially what's the original gain but
23:03
just with more freedom but hopefully
23:06
we've maintained that that crushing
23:08
oppressive kind of feeling of being
23:10
alone on a space station full of dead
23:12
people and monsters thanks for enjoying
23:15
another episode of the 80 level
23:17
Roundtable podcast check out upcoming
23:20
episodes on the 80 level website at 80.
23:23
LV join our career site at 80. LV RFP
23:28
and share our podcast with friends and
23:31
on your social networks
23:34
[Music]
23:36
foreign