Remastering Classic Video Games - 80 Level Podcast

On the GDC 2023 80LV had a chance to chat with Stephen Kick and Larry Kuperman from Nightdive Studios which specializes in remastering old classic video games. Steven and Larry discuss the upcoming release of System Shock game and take us behind the scenes of the Nightdive Studios. They talk about why it makes sense to remake the old games and spill the tea on the business side of things.

Pre-order System Shock
Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/482400/System_Shock/
GOG: https://www.gog.com/en/game/system_shock
Epic Games Store: https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/system-shock 

Check out other Nightdive’s games: https://www.nightdivestudios.com/ 

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Transcript

[Music]

0:31

okay my name is Stephen kick and I'm the

0:34

CEO of nighttime Studios

0:39

and we specialize in remastering Lost

0:42

classic games that you can no longer

0:44

play on Modern computers and consoles

0:47

and other platforms I'm Larry cooperman

0:50

I'm the Director of Business Development

0:51

for night dive Studios

0:57

Larry so tell us about how how you got

1:01

into this company

1:03

um

1:03

I uh my career in games I've been in the

1:06

games industry for uh 22 years now

1:10

started off working at stardock had a a

1:15

brief time over at uh at GameStop as

1:18

their uh as their head of uh digital

1:21

publishing um during during uh the the

1:25

period between 2011 and 2013 and then

1:29

after leaving GameStop I really wanted

1:32

to get back into a company that was

1:34

creative and I knew night dive Studios

1:37

reputation and reached out contacted

1:40

Steve kick and

1:42

10 years later here we are so tell us a

1:46

little bit about this concept of uh of

1:48

remasters because

1:49

um if you look even like the launch

1:52

lineups of certain consoles you see

1:56

basically remasters as one of the launch

1:58

titles right and it seems like there's

2:00

this huge interest in

2:04

Nostalgia you know in the older games

2:06

and so why is this happening then would

2:09

you feel like the current generation of

2:12

games just does not satisfy the consumer

2:14

or do you feel like you know there's

2:17

just the consumer it's a little bit

2:18

grown up and they want to relieve those

2:20

experiences that they had you know years

2:22

ago well I think it's a combination of

2:24

like all those things there are a lot of

2:27

people that are my age that grew up

2:29

playing these games that find it

2:30

familiar and nostalgic and want to

2:33

relive it but with you know next-gen

2:35

graphics on their ps5s or their Xbox

2:37

Ones or or whatever and uh on the

2:41

business side of things I think it's

2:43

just a much easier business decision to

2:45

do something that's known to have sold

2:48

well as opposed to putting a lot of risk

2:50

in an unknown IP which typically will

2:53

take a lot more

2:55

money to familiarize your audience with

2:59

so it's it's an easy choice

3:04

so when we think about demand for these

3:09

kind of titles can you talk a little bit

3:12

about who's buying those games uh how

3:16

much are they willing to pay uh what's

3:18

like what are they getting out of it

3:21

because it's like uh I mean you can go

3:23

and Gog and probably download the older

3:25

uh System Shock and just play with that

3:28

like how what are those in fact we

3:30

published that so yes you absolutely

3:32

absolutely can't do that

3:33

um I I think that I think that there are

3:36

are multiple portions of the demographic

3:38

that that we serve

3:40

um Steve who you interviewed before

3:42

um played a lot of these games with with

3:44

his father

3:45

um that was part of his his kind of

3:47

coming of age and this is something that

3:49

that he and his dad did together well I

3:51

had the uh the other side of that

3:53

experience I was playing some of these

3:55

games with my son

3:57

um who's who's a grown man now

4:00

um and you know games like like Turok we

4:03

played on on PC you know originally when

4:06

it when it came out so that was a shared

4:09

experience that we had

4:11

um very early on before my son was uh

4:14

was even his teenage years we were we

4:17

were hooking up um two computers

4:19

um you know pre-internet so that we

4:21

could play a land game of of Doom you

4:25

would not have been able to tell me all

4:27

those years ago that um that that that

4:29

I'd be working for a company that would

4:31

bring back Doom 64. so that was kind of

4:34

cool

4:35

um so we have a we have a young uh what

4:38

I would consider a young demographic I'm

4:40

probably probably mature demographic of

4:43

people that remember playing those games

4:44

from their childhood we have an older

4:47

demographic that played those games in

4:49

many cases either as individuals or with

4:52

their children and then we have another

4:54

demographic that's that's really uh

4:57

positive for us which is which is really

4:59

young people who never got a chance to

5:01

play the games in the first case it's

5:03

amazing how much I see on on forums I

5:06

see posts from people that begin with

5:09

saying well I've heard all about System

5:10

Shock but I never had a chance to play

5:12

it before so I'm really looking forward

5:14

to this

5:15

can you tell us a little bit about what

5:17

do BD

5:19

do for these kind of like product

5:21

oriented uh because you had this

5:23

experience at game slot and this is more

5:25

like a platform like a service thing

5:26

yeah and this is like a different taste

5:28

absolutely so um my my job duties are I

5:31

uh I talk about being outward facing I

5:34

work with a lot of our our partners

5:37

um so I manage those partner

5:39

relationships

5:40

um but because we're also a small

5:42

company I am very much Hands-On

5:45

um with the development of our kex

5:48

engine games

5:49

um some of which are are pretty well

5:50

known uh we've done development work for

5:52

companies like Bethesda Doom 64 and

5:55

Quake and we've also partnered with

5:58

companies like NBC Universal for whom we

6:01

do the tour Rock series of games so I

6:03

manage those relationships but I also

6:06

will communicate back to our development

6:08

teams and make sure that what we're

6:11

doing

6:11

aligns with what our our partners

6:14

interests are at the same time

6:16

so what are the when you talk about

6:19

Partners what Partners do you actually

6:21

need if you want to ship

6:23

a game today that is not online that is

6:27

not multiplayer it's kind of like old

6:29

school and has this big franchise behind

6:32

it but it's kind of like you know not a

6:34

fresh thing well so first of all um

6:36

first of all you really need to have

6:38

great relationships with um our

6:41

distribute distribution Partners

6:43

um for us uh that would include

6:46

companies our our oldest partner is

6:48

gog.com gog.com

6:50

um they're certainly where where the

6:52

company started off and we still work

6:53

with them very closely steam of course

6:56

epic but also Microsoft Sony Nintendo

7:00

those are those are our major Partners

7:03

on the distribution side

7:05

um and then uh

7:08

other than other than what it referred

7:10

to as clients

7:11

um we have also had a great relationship

7:13

working with the team at Epic the unreal

7:17

team over there and uh let me just uh

7:19

say that when we've had technical

7:21

questions when we've needed support for

7:23

the Unreal Engine for a game like system

7:25

shop epic has always been a really good

7:28

partner for us to work with so talking

7:31

about this um

7:33

basically what stands behind this

7:35

franchise when you talk with big

7:37

companies they're saying

7:39

basically having a fun project

7:41

is kind of like

7:43

a key to hiring great people basically

7:47

if you have a you know if you're working

7:48

on God of War it's much easier to hire

7:51

great senior Talent than if you're doing

7:53

something you know completely original

7:55

and uh studios in California they do

7:58

leverage that like the you know to the

8:00

fullest uh what about you like you're

8:02

get you're having this incredible

8:04

franchise that has been around for years

8:07

and there's like this incredible

8:09

um you know fan base how do you approach

8:11

it does it help you hire new Talent do

8:15

you do you hunt for you guys at all like

8:17

how does that work that's a really great

8:19

question because as you may know

8:22

nighttime Studios has always been a

8:23

remote studio and we've been that way

8:25

for 10 years and when you talk to AAA

8:30

and they say oh we've we hire the best

8:33

it's not necessarily true they can hire

8:35

the best within the people that live

8:38

within that studio

8:40

whereas we can truly go all over the

8:43

world and hire the best people because

8:44

there's no requirement for them to to

8:46

you know pull up their roots and move

8:49

so that's a really big factor in in how

8:52

System Shock has turned out the way it

8:53

is is we have literally hired the best

8:55

people the most passionate people who

8:57

love the game more than anyone else

8:59

and um

9:01

it's you know the benefit of working

9:03

with an IP like that is they've come to

9:04

us in most cases or we've been able to

9:08

hire via Word of Mouth you know if we

9:11

hire an artist and they recommend

9:12

somebody else

9:13

chances are they're going to be really

9:15

good so it's taking a lot of the stress

9:17

out for us having to find and locate

9:20

people

9:21

when you think about uh platforms and

9:24

companies like Sony and then many others

9:28

um

9:29

are they more like um

9:32

you know there's this idea of like four

9:34

competitive uh forces that influence you

9:37

and the idea is that the consumer is

9:39

basically your competitor suppliers

9:41

basically are compared everybody's

9:42

trying to uh come and kill you like when

9:45

your work with platforms

9:47

do they help more uh especially like in

9:51

these environments right now like when

9:52

you talk with Sony do they give you like

9:55

a feature why is it important to have

9:58

this relationship so so first of all you

10:01

know you're working in terms of of

10:02

development right you you may need to

10:04

reach out to Sony for questions on on

10:07

how to how to optimize a particular game

10:10

for Playstation you might have a problem

10:13

that you need to reach out to them help

10:15

them help get their help to resolve the

10:17

technical side then the the other side

10:19

of it is once the game is complete

10:21

you're going to be working with that

10:23

same partner different people within

10:25

that organization but you're going to be

10:26

working with that same partner on

10:28

distribution and and marketing side of

10:30

it so it's a it's a funny relationship

10:32

you're working with them before the game

10:34

is made during the the period where the

10:36

game is is in creation and then working

10:39

with a completely different group of

10:40

people but at the same organization once

10:43

the game is complete and you're getting

10:44

it out to the public

10:46

so it's a it's a complicated

10:47

relationship which is why there's always

10:50

a room for people like me to navigate

10:52

that what are the things that the

10:54

platforms can do to help you basically

10:57

push more copies like how do you work

10:59

with them in order to and also like

11:01

maybe as an advice to other devs who are

11:04

trying to do it like what can you do to

11:06

make it more successful well that's also

11:08

a great question

11:09

um I will tell you one of uh one of The

11:11

Shining Moments uh in in night Dives

11:14

past

11:15

um was when we we first our first

11:17

console launches um which was a tourak

11:20

and tourak II launched on the Xbox

11:22

platform

11:24

um Microsoft was was keenly aware that

11:27

we were a small Studio that we were

11:28

first first working on that

11:30

um we had we had great relationships we

11:32

have a dedicated partner manager over

11:35

there Glenn Gregory and Glenn was was

11:38

really instrumental in getting those

11:40

games streamed the day that they

11:42

released on Xbox

11:44

um onto both the the Xbox oxide they

11:47

have multiple sites and and so they they

11:49

really cover that and we saw a

11:50

tremendous lift

11:52

um in in both awareness and um and in

11:55

sales

11:57

um from the as a as a result of the

11:59

partnership work that that Microsoft did

12:01

was we've done similar things with um

12:04

PlayStation

12:05

um we're very active in participating in

12:08

PlayStation sponsored sales and uh and

12:11

from uh Nintendo Nintendo has been an

12:14

absolutely great partner for us to work

12:16

with

12:17

um the reception uh for our bringing

12:20

some of the old N64 titles back and and

12:24

putting them on switch has been

12:26

absolutely great

12:27

um I have been remiss in one partner

12:30

that I didn't mention and I probably

12:32

should have um there's still a huge

12:34

appetite for a Collector's Edition in

12:37

retail boxes of of our games and uh and

12:40

we work pretty closely with the team

12:42

over at limited run games that's also

12:44

been a great partnership for us

12:46

let's talk a little bit about the kind

12:49

of the business side of it like how do

12:51

you

12:53

if you are distributed in the game if

12:56

you're kind of going to Market

12:59

do you work with a publisher do you

13:01

prefer to work alone what is like the

13:04

what are the trade-offs here and there

13:06

uh typically all of our other games have

13:08

been self-published

13:09

and but with System Shock remake we're

13:11

working with PlayOn they're our first

13:14

publisher kind of in this space and and

13:16

we really needed their expertise to help

13:18

us navigate you know some of the

13:20

intricacies that we haven't experienced

13:21

before like localizing the game in 14

13:24

different languages is something that we

13:26

haven't had experience with that they

13:28

were tremendously helpful with

13:30

also a big marketing push so that more

13:34

people knew what was going on that we

13:36

were making the game was very essential

13:38

to us and and they've been amazing in

13:41

providing those services

13:44

and then just uh you know quality of

13:46

life stuff like providing exceptional QA

13:49

teams to help us track down bugs and

13:52

ensure that the end user experience is

13:55

as smooth as possible

13:57

do you feel like it's worth it like

13:58

having the published because there's

14:00

refshare involved and it's not like

14:01

they're working for free right yeah I

14:04

mean there's definitely a trade-off I

14:05

mean we're going to be publishing and

14:07

shipping a much better game than

14:11

um than without them

14:13

and uh I mean there is a cost associated

14:15

with that but we felt like it was a fair

14:17

a fair trade all right cool

14:21

so when we talk about these IPS

14:25

there is this

14:27

um there are like when I talk with guys

14:29

who are doing business like BD or people

14:31

who are

14:32

um they're saying that basically acquire

14:34

an IP is not that you know it's not that

14:38

big of an investment but sometimes it

14:40

can be like

14:41

50 000 bucks or something and you you

14:44

got like yourself like a he-man license

14:46

or something like that if if the IP is

14:49

not really hot if there's like no TV

14:52

show around it if there's like no you

14:54

know animation series and Netflix is not

14:55

interested then it's easier kind of like

14:57

to do this deal can you talk a little

14:59

bit about this you know market for these

15:02

IPS because this is a very interesting

15:04

I'm sure there's a lot of companies who

15:05

want to

15:07

you know dip their toes figure out how

15:09

it works

15:11

um give us a little bit of a background

15:12

like how does that how do you do it

15:14

well we would typically start looking

15:16

for games that we played when we were

15:18

kids that we wanted to enjoy again or we

15:21

wanted to reintroduce to a new

15:23

generation and so a lot of those IPS are

15:26

things that hadn't been touched for

15:27

quite some time and the price tag on

15:30

them kind of reflected that and so it

15:32

was a lot easier for us to go in and and

15:34

say hey this is something that a lot of

15:37

people used to love and there's a lot of

15:40

fandom's still surrounding it but you

15:43

haven't done anything with it for a

15:44

while so if you entrust us with us we

15:47

can not only add value to it but we can

15:51

we can bring it back so that the

15:53

community can kind of rally around it

15:54

again and we can rebuild that what do

15:57

you think what do you think this happens

15:59

like when you have these um you have

16:02

this IP like System Shock which is like

16:04

if you go on any list anywhere and

16:07

immersion Sims they're going to be

16:08

system strong because I'm either a

16:10

number one or a number two it's like

16:12

there's no way around it and at the same

16:14

time people are

16:16

you know not doing anything about it or

16:18

they're trying to you know reinvent the

16:21

wheel a lot of times and uh

16:24

a lot of times they fail because

16:26

sometimes there's like there's some kind

16:28

of magic there that it's not you know

16:30

reliable

16:31

yeah why is this happening that's a

16:34

really good question too because I would

16:36

a lot of what made System Shock great

16:39

obviously to the developers but looking

16:42

glass was really special because pretty

16:44

much everybody that made up that DNA

16:46

came from somewhere other than games I

16:48

mean in the early 90s it was hard to

16:50

find somebody who was well versed or

16:52

well experienced in making games and so

16:55

a lot of their talent came from people

16:58

in like the pharmaceutical industry or

17:01

um from a higher education specifically

17:05

you had a lot of people on their team

17:06

with phds in physics that type of thing

17:10

and when they got together to make a

17:12

game

17:12

they came away with lightning in a

17:14

bottle and something that I mean to my

17:17

opinion anyways has never really been

17:19

replicated

17:21

you've funny you should mention this I

17:23

didn't actually know that there were

17:25

like uh a bunch of guys from different

17:27

Industries so sort of like which is

17:29

saying basically the versatility of the

17:33

genre that they basically invented right

17:34

it comes from kind of the mindset of

17:37

people who were doing it and they were

17:40

they were not really thinking and

17:42

outside the box they were thinking like

17:43

a normal you know terms as a human being

17:46

should be thinking not kind of

17:47

restricted by the rules that the you

17:51

know virtual world is kind of pushing on

17:53

you yeah and they were trying to

17:54

recreate basically reality in this uh

17:57

entertainment package yeah and you just

18:01

don't see that much anymore because a

18:03

lot of the people are making games now

18:04

are people like me we grew up playing

18:06

them and so a lot of our experience and

18:09

our inspiration comes from games that

18:11

have already been made as opposed to

18:14

outside influences like what you know

18:17

the secret sauce would have been at

18:19

Looking Glass

18:21

um one of the one of the things that we

18:23

really found interesting about bringing

18:25

on one of the original developers Rob

18:27

Waters who is the the artist back then

18:30

was that he spent his whole career

18:32

working in games but he doesn't really

18:33

play them

18:34

and he doesn't really digest the same

18:38

media that everybody else does and so

18:40

his artistic vision is

18:43

I guess for the lack of a better term

18:44

it's very pure and so we have something

18:47

that's very unique at the same time and

18:49

I think when you play The System Shock

18:52

remake it really shines through

18:54

so let's talk about System Shock in

18:57

particular because this is one of the

18:59

big titles that you're working on right

19:00

now

19:01

um

19:02

there are two aspects when I think about

19:04

remake and remaster

19:06

and I I think this is

19:09

in the in those words right so you think

19:12

about remasters basically like a like a

19:15

facelift like the better graphics you

19:18

know it supports modern systems when

19:20

we're talking about remake there are

19:22

some some improvements I guess to it

19:24

like and so so where do you kind of

19:26

stand there like do you feel like those

19:29

games

19:30

that are older they need really to go

19:32

into the systems do you need to go into

19:34

like interfaces and some other bits and

19:37

pieces to kind of make them you know

19:39

make the necessary quality of life

19:42

improvements to make them kind of more

19:44

attractive to a current user or do you

19:47

feel like you just need to you know run

19:48

it through you know a couple of very

19:51

good artists they remake the textures

19:53

and it's good to go I think it really

19:55

depends on the game

19:57

um a lot of us have played games in the

19:59

past where you know the first time we

20:02

played them it was it was wonderful it

20:03

was state of the art but we go back and

20:05

we revisit it now and yeah like it's a

20:08

little buggy it's a little janky it

20:09

doesn't play as smoothly as we all

20:11

remember it uh we run into frustrating

20:14

game design issues and I think that one

20:17

of the things that we do specifically

20:19

when we revisit these remasters is we go

20:21

back and we evaluate all that and we

20:23

make those changes just to smooth out

20:26

the presentation and to take those bumps

20:28

and those boards off so that you're left

20:30

with something that feels more modern

20:32

and smooth and probably more closer to

20:34

how you remember it being than it

20:35

actually being

20:37

and uh you know with a with a complete

20:40

remake we're starting from from Ground

20:41

Zero essentially and we're rebuilding a

20:44

game from scratch and so that leaves us

20:46

with a lot more room to change and alter

20:50

things while also hopefully keeping with

20:53

the spirit of the original

20:55

you know what when I think about System

20:57

Shock in particular in my experience is

21:00

um kind of those drawbacks when you look

21:03

at it now and you it's kind of like an

21:05

old game and this you know I wouldn't

21:08

say bucket but it's

21:09

it has a certain level of how how you

21:12

play it right yeah

21:14

um it's janky yeah

21:16

um when I look at it now I feel like

21:18

this was part of the experience

21:20

basically like this horror of your like

21:23

being compressed in this uh space and

21:26

you're you're I was literally afraid to

21:28

open the door and proceed the sound as

21:32

well it's just kind of pushes like on

21:34

your psyche and you're just sitting

21:35

there you're afraid to move

21:37

do you feel like you can replicate that

21:39

and maybe you probably do like how do

21:41

you replicate this and and when you're

21:43

doing the the Remake well we wanted to

21:46

all be as close to the original as

21:49

possible but while giving the player you

21:52

know new things to experience and

21:55

replicating again that that atmosphere

21:57

of horror and that tension was really

21:59

important to us and so we felt that the

22:02

combination of the level design uh the

22:05

lighting and the sound was was more

22:07

important than restricting the player's

22:10

ability to kind of move and interact

22:12

with the environment

22:13

and that's one of the biggest things

22:15

that people talk about in their

22:17

inability to kind of enjoy the original

22:18

is that it's just hard to navigate and

22:22

that was by Design originally but it was

22:25

also during a time where all the

22:27

developers were just trying to figure

22:28

out the best way to allow the player to

22:30

interact with their worlds and so no one

22:34

um kind of

22:36

standard had been decided upon yet and

22:39

now with the you know 30 years of

22:42

experience behind us we're all familiar

22:44

like you know the analog sticks are

22:46

going to make you look up and down and

22:47

and move and you know if you deviate

22:50

from that it's going to upset people

22:53

and so there's a standard that we've

22:56

applied with the Remake that will enable

22:59

people to still play

23:00

essentially what's the original gain but

23:03

just with more freedom but hopefully

23:06

we've maintained that that crushing

23:08

oppressive kind of feeling of being

23:10

alone on a space station full of dead

23:12

people and monsters thanks for enjoying

23:15

another episode of the 80 level

23:17

Roundtable podcast check out upcoming

23:20

episodes on the 80 level website at 80.

23:23

LV join our career site at 80. LV RFP

23:28

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23:36

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