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80 Level Podcast
Remastering Classic Video Games - 80 Level Podcast
On the GDC 2023 80LV had a chance to chat with Stephen Kick and Larry Kuperman from Nightdive Studios which specializes in remastering old classic video games. Steven and Larry discuss the upcoming release of System Shock game and take us behind the scenes of the Nightdive Studios. They talk about why it makes sense to remake the old games and spill the tea on the business side of things.
Pre-order System Shock
Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/482400/System_Shock/
GOG: https://www.gog.com/en/game/system_shock
Epic Games Store: https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/p/system-shock
Check out other Nightdive’s games: https://www.nightdivestudios.com/
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[Music]
0:31
okay my name is Stephen kick and I'm the
0:34
CEO of nighttime Studios
0:39
and we specialize in remastering Lost
0:42
classic games that you can no longer
0:44
play on Modern computers and consoles
0:47
and other platforms I'm Larry cooperman
0:50
I'm the Director of Business Development
0:51
for night dive Studios
0:57
Larry so tell us about how how you got
1:01
into this company
1:03
um
1:03
I uh my career in games I've been in the
1:06
games industry for uh 22 years now
1:10
started off working at stardock had a a
1:15
brief time over at uh at GameStop as
1:18
their uh as their head of uh digital
1:21
publishing um during during uh the the
1:25
period between 2011 and 2013 and then
1:29
after leaving GameStop I really wanted
1:32
to get back into a company that was
1:34
creative and I knew night dive Studios
1:37
reputation and reached out contacted
1:40
Steve kick and
1:42
10 years later here we are so tell us a
1:46
little bit about this concept of uh of
1:48
remasters because
1:49
um if you look even like the launch
1:52
lineups of certain consoles you see
1:56
basically remasters as one of the launch
1:58
titles right and it seems like there's
2:00
this huge interest in
2:04
Nostalgia you know in the older games
2:06
and so why is this happening then would
2:09
you feel like the current generation of
2:12
games just does not satisfy the consumer
2:14
or do you feel like you know there's
2:17
just the consumer it's a little bit
2:18
grown up and they want to relieve those
2:20
experiences that they had you know years
2:22
ago well I think it's a combination of
2:24
like all those things there are a lot of
2:27
people that are my age that grew up
2:29
playing these games that find it
2:30
familiar and nostalgic and want to
2:33
relive it but with you know next-gen
2:35
graphics on their ps5s or their Xbox
2:37
Ones or or whatever and uh on the
2:41
business side of things I think it's
2:43
just a much easier business decision to
2:45
do something that's known to have sold
2:48
well as opposed to putting a lot of risk
2:50
in an unknown IP which typically will
2:53
take a lot more
2:55
money to familiarize your audience with
2:59
so it's it's an easy choice
3:04
so when we think about demand for these
3:09
kind of titles can you talk a little bit
3:12
about who's buying those games uh how
3:16
much are they willing to pay uh what's
3:18
like what are they getting out of it
3:21
because it's like uh I mean you can go
3:23
and Gog and probably download the older
3:25
uh System Shock and just play with that
3:28
like how what are those in fact we
3:30
published that so yes you absolutely
3:32
absolutely can't do that
3:33
um I I think that I think that there are
3:36
are multiple portions of the demographic
3:38
that that we serve
3:40
um Steve who you interviewed before
3:42
um played a lot of these games with with
3:44
his father
3:45
um that was part of his his kind of
3:47
coming of age and this is something that
3:49
that he and his dad did together well I
3:51
had the uh the other side of that
3:53
experience I was playing some of these
3:55
games with my son
3:57
um who's who's a grown man now
4:00
um and you know games like like Turok we
4:03
played on on PC you know originally when
4:06
it when it came out so that was a shared
4:09
experience that we had
4:11
um very early on before my son was uh
4:14
was even his teenage years we were we
4:17
were hooking up um two computers
4:19
um you know pre-internet so that we
4:21
could play a land game of of Doom you
4:25
would not have been able to tell me all
4:27
those years ago that um that that that
4:29
I'd be working for a company that would
4:31
bring back Doom 64. so that was kind of
4:34
cool
4:35
um so we have a we have a young uh what
4:38
I would consider a young demographic I'm
4:40
probably probably mature demographic of
4:43
people that remember playing those games
4:44
from their childhood we have an older
4:47
demographic that played those games in
4:49
many cases either as individuals or with
4:52
their children and then we have another
4:54
demographic that's that's really uh
4:57
positive for us which is which is really
4:59
young people who never got a chance to
5:01
play the games in the first case it's
5:03
amazing how much I see on on forums I
5:06
see posts from people that begin with
5:09
saying well I've heard all about System
5:10
Shock but I never had a chance to play
5:12
it before so I'm really looking forward
5:14
to this
5:15
can you tell us a little bit about what
5:17
do BD
5:19
do for these kind of like product
5:21
oriented uh because you had this
5:23
experience at game slot and this is more
5:25
like a platform like a service thing
5:26
yeah and this is like a different taste
5:28
absolutely so um my my job duties are I
5:31
uh I talk about being outward facing I
5:34
work with a lot of our our partners
5:37
um so I manage those partner
5:39
relationships
5:40
um but because we're also a small
5:42
company I am very much Hands-On
5:45
um with the development of our kex
5:48
engine games
5:49
um some of which are are pretty well
5:50
known uh we've done development work for
5:52
companies like Bethesda Doom 64 and
5:55
Quake and we've also partnered with
5:58
companies like NBC Universal for whom we
6:01
do the tour Rock series of games so I
6:03
manage those relationships but I also
6:06
will communicate back to our development
6:08
teams and make sure that what we're
6:11
doing
6:11
aligns with what our our partners
6:14
interests are at the same time
6:16
so what are the when you talk about
6:19
Partners what Partners do you actually
6:21
need if you want to ship
6:23
a game today that is not online that is
6:27
not multiplayer it's kind of like old
6:29
school and has this big franchise behind
6:32
it but it's kind of like you know not a
6:34
fresh thing well so first of all um
6:36
first of all you really need to have
6:38
great relationships with um our
6:41
distribute distribution Partners
6:43
um for us uh that would include
6:46
companies our our oldest partner is
6:48
gog.com gog.com
6:50
um they're certainly where where the
6:52
company started off and we still work
6:53
with them very closely steam of course
6:56
epic but also Microsoft Sony Nintendo
7:00
those are those are our major Partners
7:03
on the distribution side
7:05
um and then uh
7:08
other than other than what it referred
7:10
to as clients
7:11
um we have also had a great relationship
7:13
working with the team at Epic the unreal
7:17
team over there and uh let me just uh
7:19
say that when we've had technical
7:21
questions when we've needed support for
7:23
the Unreal Engine for a game like system
7:25
shop epic has always been a really good
7:28
partner for us to work with so talking
7:31
about this um
7:33
basically what stands behind this
7:35
franchise when you talk with big
7:37
companies they're saying
7:39
basically having a fun project
7:41
is kind of like
7:43
a key to hiring great people basically
7:47
if you have a you know if you're working
7:48
on God of War it's much easier to hire
7:51
great senior Talent than if you're doing
7:53
something you know completely original
7:55
and uh studios in California they do
7:58
leverage that like the you know to the
8:00
fullest uh what about you like you're
8:02
get you're having this incredible
8:04
franchise that has been around for years
8:07
and there's like this incredible
8:09
um you know fan base how do you approach
8:11
it does it help you hire new Talent do
8:15
you do you hunt for you guys at all like
8:17
how does that work that's a really great
8:19
question because as you may know
8:22
nighttime Studios has always been a
8:23
remote studio and we've been that way
8:25
for 10 years and when you talk to AAA
8:30
and they say oh we've we hire the best
8:33
it's not necessarily true they can hire
8:35
the best within the people that live
8:38
within that studio
8:40
whereas we can truly go all over the
8:43
world and hire the best people because
8:44
there's no requirement for them to to
8:46
you know pull up their roots and move
8:49
so that's a really big factor in in how
8:52
System Shock has turned out the way it
8:53
is is we have literally hired the best
8:55
people the most passionate people who
8:57
love the game more than anyone else
8:59
and um
9:01
it's you know the benefit of working
9:03
with an IP like that is they've come to
9:04
us in most cases or we've been able to
9:08
hire via Word of Mouth you know if we
9:11
hire an artist and they recommend
9:12
somebody else
9:13
chances are they're going to be really
9:15
good so it's taking a lot of the stress
9:17
out for us having to find and locate
9:20
people
9:21
when you think about uh platforms and
9:24
companies like Sony and then many others
9:28
um
9:29
are they more like um
9:32
you know there's this idea of like four
9:34
competitive uh forces that influence you
9:37
and the idea is that the consumer is
9:39
basically your competitor suppliers
9:41
basically are compared everybody's
9:42
trying to uh come and kill you like when
9:45
your work with platforms
9:47
do they help more uh especially like in
9:51
these environments right now like when
9:52
you talk with Sony do they give you like
9:55
a feature why is it important to have
9:58
this relationship so so first of all you
10:01
know you're working in terms of of
10:02
development right you you may need to
10:04
reach out to Sony for questions on on
10:07
how to how to optimize a particular game
10:10
for Playstation you might have a problem
10:13
that you need to reach out to them help
10:15
them help get their help to resolve the
10:17
technical side then the the other side
10:19
of it is once the game is complete
10:21
you're going to be working with that
10:23
same partner different people within
10:25
that organization but you're going to be
10:26
working with that same partner on
10:28
distribution and and marketing side of
10:30
it so it's a it's a funny relationship
10:32
you're working with them before the game
10:34
is made during the the period where the
10:36
game is is in creation and then working
10:39
with a completely different group of
10:40
people but at the same organization once
10:43
the game is complete and you're getting
10:44
it out to the public
10:46
so it's a it's a complicated
10:47
relationship which is why there's always
10:50
a room for people like me to navigate
10:52
that what are the things that the
10:54
platforms can do to help you basically
10:57
push more copies like how do you work
10:59
with them in order to and also like
11:01
maybe as an advice to other devs who are
11:04
trying to do it like what can you do to
11:06
make it more successful well that's also
11:08
a great question
11:09
um I will tell you one of uh one of The
11:11
Shining Moments uh in in night Dives
11:14
past
11:15
um was when we we first our first
11:17
console launches um which was a tourak
11:20
and tourak II launched on the Xbox
11:22
platform
11:24
um Microsoft was was keenly aware that
11:27
we were a small Studio that we were
11:28
first first working on that
11:30
um we had we had great relationships we
11:32
have a dedicated partner manager over
11:35
there Glenn Gregory and Glenn was was
11:38
really instrumental in getting those
11:40
games streamed the day that they
11:42
released on Xbox
11:44
um onto both the the Xbox oxide they
11:47
have multiple sites and and so they they
11:49
really cover that and we saw a
11:50
tremendous lift
11:52
um in in both awareness and um and in
11:55
sales
11:57
um from the as a as a result of the
11:59
partnership work that that Microsoft did
12:01
was we've done similar things with um
12:04
PlayStation
12:05
um we're very active in participating in
12:08
PlayStation sponsored sales and uh and
12:11
from uh Nintendo Nintendo has been an
12:14
absolutely great partner for us to work
12:16
with
12:17
um the reception uh for our bringing
12:20
some of the old N64 titles back and and
12:24
putting them on switch has been
12:26
absolutely great
12:27
um I have been remiss in one partner
12:30
that I didn't mention and I probably
12:32
should have um there's still a huge
12:34
appetite for a Collector's Edition in
12:37
retail boxes of of our games and uh and
12:40
we work pretty closely with the team
12:42
over at limited run games that's also
12:44
been a great partnership for us
12:46
let's talk a little bit about the kind
12:49
of the business side of it like how do
12:51
you
12:53
if you are distributed in the game if
12:56
you're kind of going to Market
12:59
do you work with a publisher do you
13:01
prefer to work alone what is like the
13:04
what are the trade-offs here and there
13:06
uh typically all of our other games have
13:08
been self-published
13:09
and but with System Shock remake we're
13:11
working with PlayOn they're our first
13:14
publisher kind of in this space and and
13:16
we really needed their expertise to help
13:18
us navigate you know some of the
13:20
intricacies that we haven't experienced
13:21
before like localizing the game in 14
13:24
different languages is something that we
13:26
haven't had experience with that they
13:28
were tremendously helpful with
13:30
also a big marketing push so that more
13:34
people knew what was going on that we
13:36
were making the game was very essential
13:38
to us and and they've been amazing in
13:41
providing those services
13:44
and then just uh you know quality of
13:46
life stuff like providing exceptional QA
13:49
teams to help us track down bugs and
13:52
ensure that the end user experience is
13:55
as smooth as possible
13:57
do you feel like it's worth it like
13:58
having the published because there's
14:00
refshare involved and it's not like
14:01
they're working for free right yeah I
14:04
mean there's definitely a trade-off I
14:05
mean we're going to be publishing and
14:07
shipping a much better game than
14:11
um than without them
14:13
and uh I mean there is a cost associated
14:15
with that but we felt like it was a fair
14:17
a fair trade all right cool
14:21
so when we talk about these IPS
14:25
there is this
14:27
um there are like when I talk with guys
14:29
who are doing business like BD or people
14:31
who are
14:32
um they're saying that basically acquire
14:34
an IP is not that you know it's not that
14:38
big of an investment but sometimes it
14:40
can be like
14:41
50 000 bucks or something and you you
14:44
got like yourself like a he-man license
14:46
or something like that if if the IP is
14:49
not really hot if there's like no TV
14:52
show around it if there's like no you
14:54
know animation series and Netflix is not
14:55
interested then it's easier kind of like
14:57
to do this deal can you talk a little
14:59
bit about this you know market for these
15:02
IPS because this is a very interesting
15:04
I'm sure there's a lot of companies who
15:05
want to
15:07
you know dip their toes figure out how
15:09
it works
15:11
um give us a little bit of a background
15:12
like how does that how do you do it
15:14
well we would typically start looking
15:16
for games that we played when we were
15:18
kids that we wanted to enjoy again or we
15:21
wanted to reintroduce to a new
15:23
generation and so a lot of those IPS are
15:26
things that hadn't been touched for
15:27
quite some time and the price tag on
15:30
them kind of reflected that and so it
15:32
was a lot easier for us to go in and and
15:34
say hey this is something that a lot of
15:37
people used to love and there's a lot of
15:40
fandom's still surrounding it but you
15:43
haven't done anything with it for a
15:44
while so if you entrust us with us we
15:47
can not only add value to it but we can
15:51
we can bring it back so that the
15:53
community can kind of rally around it
15:54
again and we can rebuild that what do
15:57
you think what do you think this happens
15:59
like when you have these um you have
16:02
this IP like System Shock which is like
16:04
if you go on any list anywhere and
16:07
immersion Sims they're going to be
16:08
system strong because I'm either a
16:10
number one or a number two it's like
16:12
there's no way around it and at the same
16:14
time people are
16:16
you know not doing anything about it or
16:18
they're trying to you know reinvent the
16:21
wheel a lot of times and uh
16:24
a lot of times they fail because
16:26
sometimes there's like there's some kind
16:28
of magic there that it's not you know
16:30
reliable
16:31
yeah why is this happening that's a
16:34
really good question too because I would
16:36
a lot of what made System Shock great
16:39
obviously to the developers but looking
16:42
glass was really special because pretty
16:44
much everybody that made up that DNA
16:46
came from somewhere other than games I
16:48
mean in the early 90s it was hard to
16:50
find somebody who was well versed or
16:52
well experienced in making games and so
16:55
a lot of their talent came from people
16:58
in like the pharmaceutical industry or
17:01
um from a higher education specifically
17:05
you had a lot of people on their team
17:06
with phds in physics that type of thing
17:10
and when they got together to make a
17:12
game
17:12
they came away with lightning in a
17:14
bottle and something that I mean to my
17:17
opinion anyways has never really been
17:19
replicated
17:21
you've funny you should mention this I
17:23
didn't actually know that there were
17:25
like uh a bunch of guys from different
17:27
Industries so sort of like which is
17:29
saying basically the versatility of the
17:33
genre that they basically invented right
17:34
it comes from kind of the mindset of
17:37
people who were doing it and they were
17:40
they were not really thinking and
17:42
outside the box they were thinking like
17:43
a normal you know terms as a human being
17:46
should be thinking not kind of
17:47
restricted by the rules that the you
17:51
know virtual world is kind of pushing on
17:53
you yeah and they were trying to
17:54
recreate basically reality in this uh
17:57
entertainment package yeah and you just
18:01
don't see that much anymore because a
18:03
lot of the people are making games now
18:04
are people like me we grew up playing
18:06
them and so a lot of our experience and
18:09
our inspiration comes from games that
18:11
have already been made as opposed to
18:14
outside influences like what you know
18:17
the secret sauce would have been at
18:19
Looking Glass
18:21
um one of the one of the things that we
18:23
really found interesting about bringing
18:25
on one of the original developers Rob
18:27
Waters who is the the artist back then
18:30
was that he spent his whole career
18:32
working in games but he doesn't really
18:33
play them
18:34
and he doesn't really digest the same
18:38
media that everybody else does and so
18:40
his artistic vision is
18:43
I guess for the lack of a better term
18:44
it's very pure and so we have something
18:47
that's very unique at the same time and
18:49
I think when you play The System Shock
18:52
remake it really shines through
18:54
so let's talk about System Shock in
18:57
particular because this is one of the
18:59
big titles that you're working on right
19:00
now
19:01
um
19:02
there are two aspects when I think about
19:04
remake and remaster
19:06
and I I think this is
19:09
in the in those words right so you think
19:12
about remasters basically like a like a
19:15
facelift like the better graphics you
19:18
know it supports modern systems when
19:20
we're talking about remake there are
19:22
some some improvements I guess to it
19:24
like and so so where do you kind of
19:26
stand there like do you feel like those
19:29
games
19:30
that are older they need really to go
19:32
into the systems do you need to go into
19:34
like interfaces and some other bits and
19:37
pieces to kind of make them you know
19:39
make the necessary quality of life
19:42
improvements to make them kind of more
19:44
attractive to a current user or do you
19:47
feel like you just need to you know run
19:48
it through you know a couple of very
19:51
good artists they remake the textures
19:53
and it's good to go I think it really
19:55
depends on the game
19:57
um a lot of us have played games in the
19:59
past where you know the first time we
20:02
played them it was it was wonderful it
20:03
was state of the art but we go back and
20:05
we revisit it now and yeah like it's a
20:08
little buggy it's a little janky it
20:09
doesn't play as smoothly as we all
20:11
remember it uh we run into frustrating
20:14
game design issues and I think that one
20:17
of the things that we do specifically
20:19
when we revisit these remasters is we go
20:21
back and we evaluate all that and we
20:23
make those changes just to smooth out
20:26
the presentation and to take those bumps
20:28
and those boards off so that you're left
20:30
with something that feels more modern
20:32
and smooth and probably more closer to
20:34
how you remember it being than it
20:35
actually being
20:37
and uh you know with a with a complete
20:40
remake we're starting from from Ground
20:41
Zero essentially and we're rebuilding a
20:44
game from scratch and so that leaves us
20:46
with a lot more room to change and alter
20:50
things while also hopefully keeping with
20:53
the spirit of the original
20:55
you know what when I think about System
20:57
Shock in particular in my experience is
21:00
um kind of those drawbacks when you look
21:03
at it now and you it's kind of like an
21:05
old game and this you know I wouldn't
21:08
say bucket but it's
21:09
it has a certain level of how how you
21:12
play it right yeah
21:14
um it's janky yeah
21:16
um when I look at it now I feel like
21:18
this was part of the experience
21:20
basically like this horror of your like
21:23
being compressed in this uh space and
21:26
you're you're I was literally afraid to
21:28
open the door and proceed the sound as
21:32
well it's just kind of pushes like on
21:34
your psyche and you're just sitting
21:35
there you're afraid to move
21:37
do you feel like you can replicate that
21:39
and maybe you probably do like how do
21:41
you replicate this and and when you're
21:43
doing the the Remake well we wanted to
21:46
all be as close to the original as
21:49
possible but while giving the player you
21:52
know new things to experience and
21:55
replicating again that that atmosphere
21:57
of horror and that tension was really
21:59
important to us and so we felt that the
22:02
combination of the level design uh the
22:05
lighting and the sound was was more
22:07
important than restricting the player's
22:10
ability to kind of move and interact
22:12
with the environment
22:13
and that's one of the biggest things
22:15
that people talk about in their
22:17
inability to kind of enjoy the original
22:18
is that it's just hard to navigate and
22:22
that was by Design originally but it was
22:25
also during a time where all the
22:27
developers were just trying to figure
22:28
out the best way to allow the player to
22:30
interact with their worlds and so no one
22:34
um kind of
22:36
standard had been decided upon yet and
22:39
now with the you know 30 years of
22:42
experience behind us we're all familiar
22:44
like you know the analog sticks are
22:46
going to make you look up and down and
22:47
and move and you know if you deviate
22:50
from that it's going to upset people
22:53
and so there's a standard that we've
22:56
applied with the Remake that will enable
22:59
people to still play
23:00
essentially what's the original gain but
23:03
just with more freedom but hopefully
23:06
we've maintained that that crushing
23:08
oppressive kind of feeling of being
23:10
alone on a space station full of dead
23:12
people and monsters thanks for enjoying
23:15
another episode of the 80 level
23:17
Roundtable podcast check out upcoming
23:20
episodes on the 80 level website at 80.
23:23
LV join our career site at 80. LV RFP
23:28
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[Music]
23:36
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