80 Level Podcast

Developing VR Shooter - 80 Level Podcast

Kirill Tokarev / Masaru Ohnogi / Dax Berg Season 3 Episode 10

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80 Level talked with Masaru Ohnogi and Dax Berg, Co-founder and VP at Thirdverse studio. We dive into the development of their latest VR shooter game X8 and talk about engines, mechanics, interactivity, and design. Masaru and Dax also share their insights on the future of the VR game market and what developers should focus on to make a game successful.

Get early access to X8
Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1763510/X8/
Meta App Lab: https://www.oculus.com/experiences/quest/4518172508241377/

Learn more about Thirdverse: https://www.thirdverse.io/en/ 

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0:00

foreign


0:10

can you do like a little intro a little


0:13

bit about yourself a little bit about


0:15

the company yes um I'm nogi co-founder


0:18

of thought about I'm also the CBO of the


0:20

company


0:25

those thousand Birds is a BL gaming


0:28

developer publisher and then cover 2


0:30

studio in one meeting Japan in Tokyo and


0:33

one in the US but U.S is all remote we


0:35

don't have any offices


0:37

and we currently have a two games right


0:41

then one is a solo fighting game called


0:44

assorted Gargantua and then one day it's


0:47

called archive breaker which we just


0:49

launched on the PlayStation PR2 platform


0:52

and then now our USA studio is making


0:55

the hero based shooter called X8 that's


0:58

what we're expecting on soon then we


1:01

actually uh planning the quote beta 2


1:04

next week from the March 27th couple of


1:07

words about yourself what do you do sure


1:09

yeah my name is daxberg I am the VP of


1:13

us Studios for third verse


1:21

um are we have two Studios one in uh


1:25

Tokyo which is an in-house studio and


1:27

then the US Studios is really kind of a


1:30

global Studio we're all remote


1:33

um on our team we have up to 13


1:35

different countries actually that we're


1:37

working with so we're very uh very


1:39

remote but we're working our main title


1:41

right now is a game called X8 tell us a


1:44

little bit more about it X8 what is it


1:46

what kind of game is it sure uh X8 is a


1:48

VR heroic shooter uh five versus five


1:51

multiplayer so the idea for those


1:55

familiar not familiar with heroic


1:56

Shooters would be kind of like take the


1:58

hero styles of a fighting game but put


2:01

those in those heroic Styles put those


2:04

into uh you know a shooter a first


2:08

person shooter OverWatch is a good


2:09

analogy OverWatch is a good analogy the


2:11

balance is a good analogy


2:13

um those style of games so so X8


2:16

um kind of the quick narrative behind X8


2:18

is it's a uh it's an old game engine


2:21

that has a lot of first-person shooter


2:22

hits


2:24

um and as the time goes on no one is


2:26

making games out of this game engine


2:28

anymore it becomes kind of self-aware


2:30

and it it um kind of eats a part of


2:33

itself and then pulls all of these


2:35

heroes from all these games back into


2:37

its engine and they have to fight


2:39

amongst each other to get their games


2:42

booted back online


2:43

so tell us a little bit about


2:46

what's going on in the VR Market


2:49

currently because


2:50

even last year when I was here at GDC a


2:53

lot of people were saying that


2:55

VR is kind of like


2:58

sort of like a new mobile meaning that


3:01

there is not really that many games but


3:04

there is already sort of some kind of


3:06

demand and a lot of people are kind of


3:08

moving into this space they feel like


3:11

it's an interesting opportunity yes tell


3:13

us a bit more sure so so when we first


3:16

launched the sort of garden control


3:18

that's a


3:20

2019 and that was actually the quest one


3:24

launch date and


3:27

um we also saw the request to launch


3:31

um then we saw how hype the software


3:34

sales so device launching devices always


3:37

expand the market so I think this year


3:40

is another big year for the BR because


3:43

there are two big devices coming up one


3:45

is a Precision BL2 which is just launch


3:47

it and then Chris we definitely they're


3:50

coming this coming Q4 that's why uh


3:52

we're expecting another hype of the


3:55

market close yeah that's why we are


3:58

focusing on product launch this year


4:00

and um as you may know Quest 2 is


4:03

already the sold 20 million units that


4:08

is actually 20 percent of the Bitcoin


4:10

console gaming like uh Nintendo switch


4:13

something and um it's already uh the


4:17

chat caught up is Xbox devices and that


4:21

is actually the beer of the decent


4:23

Market already so it's actually monitor


4:26

uh you know was to do the business


4:28

that's why I think people are starting


4:30

jumping the market again


4:32

so you work as a publisher and probably


4:36

a question that a lot of Publishers get


4:38

it what do consumers want what do they


4:41

like what do they want in terms of VR


4:44

experiences what are the tastes like


4:46

because I feel like there's a lot of the


4:48

books who don't really know they don't


4:50

really know the answer to this question


4:52

so our team member has kind of a variety


4:56

of experience from from the non-br


4:59

device for example I'm talking more like


5:02

a PC Mobile gaming developer publisher


5:05

and then our studio head Dax is more


5:07

like console gaming experience but I'll


5:09

be our actually quite unique because


5:15

not have then one is


5:18

yes of course of course you know uh you


5:22

are in uh the in the game because I


5:25

always say the no bigger game


5:28

experiences you only can have through


5:31

the 2D monitor but uh in the BR you're


5:34

in the game actually that's a big


5:36

difference first and then other big


5:39

things is we always say that


5:41

it's our interaction got a non-br gaming


5:45

you just use


5:47

controller Mustang keyboard on top of


5:49

three on the new just uh the control


5:53

game character 3D monitor it's more like


5:57

a southern person view but uh in a beer


5:59

experiences you are going to be a game


6:02

character itself but then you you touch


6:04

object then you kill enemies mini stop


6:07

the two that's totally different


6:09

experience then uh we we know there's


6:13

already many BL gamers in the market and


6:17

then what they uh most expect is more


6:20

like a new experience you know flying


6:23

you know climbing but it's already


6:24

exists but uh they are certain people


6:26

one of the new experiences that's we are


6:28

trying to generate


6:31

so kind of like I guess a noob question


6:33

I'm one of those people who gets


6:35

destroyed in any competitive on live uh


6:38

right and then I think about trying to


6:41

do this in VR and I feel like my chances


6:43

are even smaller so how do you make this


6:46

work in VR that it's not disorienting


6:48

and then you understand where you're


6:50

going because like we mentioned there's


6:52

like 360 degree and you cannot be


6:54

attacked from all over yeah lots and


6:56

lots of options


6:58

um yeah I had a big meeting several


6:59

years ago with Jason Rubin


7:01

um from from meta and he said to me the


7:05

more options you can give a player the


7:07

better they'll be comfortable with so


7:09

for example movement Styles


7:11

um smooth turn is one way some people


7:13

have to play with smooth turn As you


7:15

move and look you kind of turn the way


7:16

you want to go I can't play that way at


7:18

all I need snap turn snap turning with


7:21

the flick you can decide how many


7:22

degrees of rotation you want to have and


7:25

you can set that anywhere from 15 to


7:27

1090 degrees on Snap so there that's


7:30

just one style movement the style of


7:32

locomotion Comfort settings we have a


7:35

massive amount of options in our game to


7:36

custom fit the player so that they feel


7:39

the most comfortable in the game as far


7:41

as the game itself it is a competitive


7:43

game so there is a learning curve


7:46

um but we do have a very extensive


7:48

tutorial and a practice mode to allow


7:50

people to feel very comfortable learning


7:53

all of the abilities and the things that


7:55

you do within the game before you jump


7:57

in


7:58

uh do you guys feel comfortable


8:00

launching the multiplayer title do you


8:02

feel like there's enough players on the


8:04

market right now that are craving


8:06

multiplayer experiences and you're not


8:07

going to end up with like a Lobby that's


8:09

half empty uh we we do uh you know with


8:13

like it's over 20 million


8:15

um devices for Quest plus we're


8:17

cross-platform so the idea of psvr2


8:22

um Quest as well as pcvr on Steam


8:25

um all of those players will be able to


8:26

enter the same Lobby and play together


8:28

do you use any particular like is there


8:32

any particular technological aspect to


8:34

like the networking and making sure that


8:37

it all connects or do you use some yeah


8:40

I mean we use a system called playfab


8:42

for our networking but there's a lot of


8:44

a lot of technical things to be able to


8:46

hook that up and make it run smoothly so


8:49

let's talk a little bit about from the


8:51

developers 10 point


8:52

when I think about


8:55

video games done for VR I think that


8:58

they are shorter in terms of session


9:01

they also have a little bit of a


9:04

different visual Style


9:05

and how those these particular elements


9:09

influence the cost of production and the


9:12

time of production is it as expensive to


9:14

build a VR title as you're building like


9:17

a game for computers or is it cheaper or


9:21

maybe it's faster like what are the


9:23

advantages if you're trying want to try


9:25

to do a VR thing


9:27

that's good to ask to dark small but uh


9:31

of course if it's maybe there are no


9:33

advantages that's also an answer but if


9:36

you try to make a high degree definition


9:37

content of course costs gonna be really


9:40

higher gotta you know every single beer


9:43

is a 3D you know and the 63 a 360


9:45

environment so you have to you know


9:47

touch generate everything that's why or


9:50

lower simple visual should be uh uh more


9:55

reasonable to develop that that uh data


9:58

sense of the development in appears so


10:00

far


10:01

how do you think


10:03

games like


10:05

Alex are made like what do you feel like


10:07

it costs to do a game like that you know


10:10

half right box yeah that's crazy you'd


10:13

remember the course it should be 100 or


10:16

200 million something


10:17

that we you can not do right now it's


10:20

not affordable to do you're talking


10:22

about cross-platform


10:24

um what kind of Technology do you use in


10:27

terms of rendering like do you use Unity


10:28

or unreal we use unreal unreal tell us a


10:32

little bit about how unreal Fields


10:34

itself in the VR


10:36

um the platform it adapts pretty well


10:39

we're not on unreal five we're still in


10:42

4.262 I believe


10:44

um we do have a VR version of unreal so


10:47

there's a small kind of plug-in


10:49

specifically for VR and then on top of


10:51

that we we add our own little bits of


10:53

flavor uh to to help with the game but


10:57

uh but I'm real it's done done well for


10:59

us we really we really feel like that's


11:01

where uh you know the game engines are


11:04

moving and a lot of our our story is


11:06

based on a game engine so it's kind of


11:08

funny we we use a lot of unreal you know


11:11

Meta Meta Meta exactly exactly so


11:16

in terms of like customers and when


11:19

you're going to Market how do you how do


11:21

you suggest approaching you know


11:23

Community Building how do you approach


11:25

kind of ramping up the Market to make


11:29

sure that the sales are started like day


11:31

one and so on what are the tools that


11:33

you could use to make sure that your


11:35

game especially a VR game is successful


11:37

down the line like do you work more with


11:40

platform do you work more with the


11:42

community do you need to have a large


11:44

marketing budget maybe a lower marketing


11:46

budget so


11:49

um we already launched two titles and um


11:53

we learned a lot and then current our


11:56

concept of the game development is more


11:58

like Community Driven but uh of course


12:01

we work with the platforms such as you


12:03

know mirror also Steam and the Sie for


12:07

the Precision be after but uh of course


12:10

we need their support but we are making


12:13

contents which we are selling to the


12:15

consumers so


12:16

current our approach is uh trying to


12:19

talk with interact with more communities


12:22

and then try to get more feedback and


12:24

then try to implement our game I think


12:26

that's the key and then that they have a


12:29

direct answer as well they want to do


12:31

when they want right that's why


12:34

um we use social media also Discord and


12:39

then and um


12:41

then uh the ability to community over


12:43

there then interact with them what do


12:46

you think about Platforms in general


12:48

like what is the platform to go to if


12:50

you want to be successful in VR is it uh


12:53

kind of meta stuff or is it a


12:54

PlayStation or do you need to because


12:57

you can't cover all of them like at


12:59

immediately right so you need to


13:01

prioritize so where do you think the


13:03

focus should be so the idea ideally if


13:07

you can you know launch the old


13:09

platforms semester 3 then we can reach


13:12

out all users that's why that's an ideal


13:15

case but uh uh as far as we know the the


13:18

steering majority of share the metacrist


13:21

has


13:22

probably a 60 to 80 70 that's why


13:28

um I think there if you target Quest 2


13:31

primarily it's uh


13:34

I think you get more chance right now


13:36

yeah and then they can expand the other


13:39

platforms do you get a lot of support


13:41

from you know meta and the platform


13:44

holders themselves are they


13:46

you know are they featuring you more do


13:49

they provide you some extra support and


13:51

other like technical questions or


13:52

something like that yeah our advantages


13:54

are so I leave the I live in their


13:58

boarding game which is a mirror Excel


14:00

headquarters there that's why I interact


14:03

with them very often and our Japan team


14:06

the majority of people from the Sie


14:09

that's why we talk with sap partner


14:11

that's why we we have a more like


14:14

Information Program


14:15

now that's our advantage


14:17

I was in uh epic headquarters like I


14:22

think it was like five years ago or six


14:23

years ago and


14:25

they were really heavy on showing their


14:28

VR stuff and they were using


14:30

uh VR basically in engine so you can


14:33

build you know spaces using AR goggles


14:36

and stuff like that I'm not sure this is


14:38

it was more like a gimmick it would have


14:40

kind of like showcasing the technology


14:41

but do you feel like


14:44

technology companies are really


14:46

embracing more VR right now like do you


14:49

feel like companies like Adobe you know


14:52

like


14:53

uh I think it I think it Ebbs and flows


14:56

I think sometimes there's a push and


14:58

then it goes and VR is is is trending up


15:01

but it's done this the whole way right


15:03

so it's just finding that time and space


15:06

for when there's enough adapt you know


15:09

early adopters that then fully Push It


15:12

Forward right I look at the same kind of


15:14

analogy of like you know


15:18

beta or VHS you know it's eventually


15:20

like one of those hits and then that


15:23

adaption moves and then you've you've


15:26

got everybody eventually will launch


15:27

into it so I see the VR space as


15:30

eventually how the mobile market was


15:33

circuit kind of 2005 2006 uh where it's


15:38

it's inevitable that will will will


15:40

really launch it's just exactly when you


15:43

mentioned while working on X8 you have


15:47

um kind of distributed team


15:49

what are you looking in when you're


15:52

trying to hire a developer like are you


15:54

just looking at their heart skills do


15:57

you want to people from particular


15:59

region because it's better for your


16:02

um you know yeah for for time zone for


16:05

for us on our team we


16:07

what works best for us is anything


16:10

that's not kind of in the Japan


16:12

Australia kind of Realm because we have


16:14

kind of a core set of hours usually from


16:17

about 7 30 in the morning Pacific time


16:20

uh all the way to to noon or one and


16:24

those are times across the globe where


16:25

most of the people are going to be


16:26

active and on and then the rest of that


16:28

time they fill in to kind of finish


16:30

their full day so we have some people


16:32

starting earlier in the day and and


16:34

they're ending their their you know


16:35

their day or their evening uh um in in


16:39

all the way in Eastern Europe all the


16:40

way to you know uh the Pacific coast is


16:44

there enough uh people right now who


16:46

know unreal and are also comfortable


16:48

with VR or do you feel like there is


16:51

like a need for more whatever it is it


16:53

is sometimes difficult it was very


16:55

difficult hiring the right kind of


16:57

networking because you're looking for


16:58

someone who has VR experience you're


17:00

looking for someone who's unreal


17:01

experience you're looking for someone


17:02

that has play Fab experience you know


17:03

there's that that that gets a lot


17:06

smaller as you kind of go through but


17:08

um you know we have a lot of really good


17:10

uh developers who have who have the ones


17:13

that didn't have a lot of VR experience


17:16

um have really learned the game and the


17:20

Dynamics and the and and and the design


17:22

part of it and and the reason for a lot


17:25

of the tactile experiences


17:27

um and then you know others um have have


17:30

been in it you know as long as I have


17:31

and and have been really fascinated


17:34

since all the way back to the the dk1


17:36

launch


17:38

okay so kind of like last question for


17:40

you is when when you're browsing through


17:43

pitches when you're browsing through


17:45

projects what are you looking for like


17:47

how do I sign a contract with you what


17:50

do you need from a developer


17:52

uh oh so sorry what if you're looking


17:55

for a new project what are you looking


17:58

for does it has to be a team with a


18:01

proven record does it have to be an


18:03

interest in IP does it have to be a


18:05

particular style or maybe a technical


18:07

quality that you're how do you know that


18:09

it's you want to work with this company


18:12

and make a game


18:13

cutting a company called The Vision is


18:17

try to create a metaboss it could be if


18:21

we can describe a little bit more detail


18:22

uh it should be kind of


18:26

RPG type of game so many people know


18:30

access at the same time but uh that was


18:33

we need a more like a server technology


18:35

but uh it's as I said as I said in the


18:37

city 60 environment it's hard to print


18:39

many people that we have to do also


18:43

um no


18:45

more like you know more


18:47

the major physics combat and shooting


18:51

mechanics many things you have to


18:52

implement it that's why we're making


18:54

solo fighting game shooter game also


18:57

um to um


18:59

make a beer market popular I think we


19:02

need existing eyepiece that's why we are


19:04

also talking so that's a main Peter we


19:07

are trying to implement again is VR


19:10

development Big in Japan currently


19:13

is it like a a lot of companies are


19:16

doing it or do you feel like it's still


19:17

like a smaller niche


19:20

uh it's getting bigger but I'm not


19:25

there are another mini uh PR specific


19:29

developers in Japan but it's expanding


19:31

right now but uh ideally the big console


19:35

gaming guys like you know Capcom economy


19:38

Sega if they those guys if they see us


19:40

and jump in the market the data time I


19:42

think is no more biggest expansion I


19:45

think Capcom was doing some work and


19:46

like with the Resident Evil series yeah


19:48

but we are they just provided IP they


19:52

didn't make it oh they didn't do it yeah


19:54

that type of cool project with the


19:55

mirror I feel like when you're looking


19:57

for developers one of the things


19:59

everybody's saying that you need to have


20:01

passion you need to have passion you


20:03

need to be very you know engaged and so


20:06

on


20:07

um do you feel the same way or maybe


20:09

there are some things like passion that


20:11

sometimes it can hurt but people get


20:13

burnt too often or they kind of


20:18

get sold in one idea and then you can


20:21

push them from it like and do something


20:23

else yeah I mean that comes a lot with


20:25

just design there is


20:28

there is a passion to make sure that the


20:30

game is not just a port from you know if


20:34

you were making OverWatch you were


20:36

making valorant or you know oh we're


20:37

just going to Port that into into the VR


20:40

space we really want a lot of


20:42

interactivity so we we call them uh


20:44

gvris Global VR interactives that we


20:47

have to have in the game so we're trying


20:49

to make sure that the things that you do


20:51

you're not just clicking buttons but


20:53

you're interacting or you're you're


20:55

enhancing or you're moving in different


20:57

ways and get given a lot of different


20:59

physicality however we do base the game


21:02

around being very


21:04

uh wait it's not room based so you can


21:06

turn and spin and take a step side and


21:08

leans right but you don't move


21:10

throughout the throughout the room uh


21:13

you'll need to and the reason behind


21:15

that is that our game lasts or anywhere


21:17

from 15 to 20 minutes for a full match


21:19

people play a couple matches in a row


21:21

and I still feel like in some ways


21:23

gamers are inherently lazy where they


21:25

want to be comfortable but still want to


21:27

play a lot of times so we keep that


21:31

a pivot point there and and you're


21:33

stationary but we do have a lot of


21:36

movement from your your Center standing


21:39

so a final question you have a lot of


21:42

this media ideas that there's a game


21:44

engine this kind of became Salient and


21:46

the he starts to stand something though


21:49

where does that come from and do you


21:52

feel like market right currently is


21:54

ready for kind of these kind of story


21:56

pitches so on because it sounds like


21:57

what you're saying is basically it's uh


22:00

it feels to me it's like there's like


22:02

this audience that first of all knows


22:04

what a game engine is and it's large


22:06

enough to you know get you enough


22:09

players I I think post uh epic fortnite


22:14

where unreal became its real own entity


22:18

and has grown very big I think the cat


22:20

like an average video gamer knows what a


22:23

game engine is these days


22:25

um and also the narrative on the game is


22:27

a pretty small part of the actual game


22:29

itself so the game mechanics themselves


22:31

with each hero having their own heroic


22:33

abilities and the casting system that


22:35

you use it's not really adhering to a


22:39

narrative is that narrative is a nice


22:40

way to kind of put it all together and


22:43

and make it fun and make it have some


22:45

sort of background sense thanks for


22:47

enjoying another episode of the 80 level


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Roundtable podcast check out upcoming


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episodes on the 80 level website at 80.


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LV join our career site at 80.lv RFP


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share our podcast with friends and on


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[Music]

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