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80 Level Podcast
Developing VR Shooter - 80 Level Podcast
80 Level talked with Masaru Ohnogi and Dax Berg, Co-founder and VP at Thirdverse studio. We dive into the development of their latest VR shooter game X8 and talk about engines, mechanics, interactivity, and design. Masaru and Dax also share their insights on the future of the VR game market and what developers should focus on to make a game successful.
Get early access to X8
Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1763510/X8/
Meta App Lab: https://www.oculus.com/experiences/quest/4518172508241377/
Learn more about Thirdverse: https://www.thirdverse.io/en/
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0:00
foreign
0:10
can you do like a little intro a little
0:13
bit about yourself a little bit about
0:15
the company yes um I'm nogi co-founder
0:18
of thought about I'm also the CBO of the
0:20
company
0:25
those thousand Birds is a BL gaming
0:28
developer publisher and then cover 2
0:30
studio in one meeting Japan in Tokyo and
0:33
one in the US but U.S is all remote we
0:35
don't have any offices
0:37
and we currently have a two games right
0:41
then one is a solo fighting game called
0:44
assorted Gargantua and then one day it's
0:47
called archive breaker which we just
0:49
launched on the PlayStation PR2 platform
0:52
and then now our USA studio is making
0:55
the hero based shooter called X8 that's
0:58
what we're expecting on soon then we
1:01
actually uh planning the quote beta 2
1:04
next week from the March 27th couple of
1:07
words about yourself what do you do sure
1:09
yeah my name is daxberg I am the VP of
1:13
us Studios for third verse
1:21
um are we have two Studios one in uh
1:25
Tokyo which is an in-house studio and
1:27
then the US Studios is really kind of a
1:30
global Studio we're all remote
1:33
um on our team we have up to 13
1:35
different countries actually that we're
1:37
working with so we're very uh very
1:39
remote but we're working our main title
1:41
right now is a game called X8 tell us a
1:44
little bit more about it X8 what is it
1:46
what kind of game is it sure uh X8 is a
1:48
VR heroic shooter uh five versus five
1:51
multiplayer so the idea for those
1:55
familiar not familiar with heroic
1:56
Shooters would be kind of like take the
1:58
hero styles of a fighting game but put
2:01
those in those heroic Styles put those
2:04
into uh you know a shooter a first
2:08
person shooter OverWatch is a good
2:09
analogy OverWatch is a good analogy the
2:11
balance is a good analogy
2:13
um those style of games so so X8
2:16
um kind of the quick narrative behind X8
2:18
is it's a uh it's an old game engine
2:21
that has a lot of first-person shooter
2:22
hits
2:24
um and as the time goes on no one is
2:26
making games out of this game engine
2:28
anymore it becomes kind of self-aware
2:30
and it it um kind of eats a part of
2:33
itself and then pulls all of these
2:35
heroes from all these games back into
2:37
its engine and they have to fight
2:39
amongst each other to get their games
2:42
booted back online
2:43
so tell us a little bit about
2:46
what's going on in the VR Market
2:49
currently because
2:50
even last year when I was here at GDC a
2:53
lot of people were saying that
2:55
VR is kind of like
2:58
sort of like a new mobile meaning that
3:01
there is not really that many games but
3:04
there is already sort of some kind of
3:06
demand and a lot of people are kind of
3:08
moving into this space they feel like
3:11
it's an interesting opportunity yes tell
3:13
us a bit more sure so so when we first
3:16
launched the sort of garden control
3:18
that's a
3:20
2019 and that was actually the quest one
3:24
launch date and
3:27
um we also saw the request to launch
3:31
um then we saw how hype the software
3:34
sales so device launching devices always
3:37
expand the market so I think this year
3:40
is another big year for the BR because
3:43
there are two big devices coming up one
3:45
is a Precision BL2 which is just launch
3:47
it and then Chris we definitely they're
3:50
coming this coming Q4 that's why uh
3:52
we're expecting another hype of the
3:55
market close yeah that's why we are
3:58
focusing on product launch this year
4:00
and um as you may know Quest 2 is
4:03
already the sold 20 million units that
4:08
is actually 20 percent of the Bitcoin
4:10
console gaming like uh Nintendo switch
4:13
something and um it's already uh the
4:17
chat caught up is Xbox devices and that
4:21
is actually the beer of the decent
4:23
Market already so it's actually monitor
4:26
uh you know was to do the business
4:28
that's why I think people are starting
4:30
jumping the market again
4:32
so you work as a publisher and probably
4:36
a question that a lot of Publishers get
4:38
it what do consumers want what do they
4:41
like what do they want in terms of VR
4:44
experiences what are the tastes like
4:46
because I feel like there's a lot of the
4:48
books who don't really know they don't
4:50
really know the answer to this question
4:52
so our team member has kind of a variety
4:56
of experience from from the non-br
4:59
device for example I'm talking more like
5:02
a PC Mobile gaming developer publisher
5:05
and then our studio head Dax is more
5:07
like console gaming experience but I'll
5:09
be our actually quite unique because
5:15
not have then one is
5:18
yes of course of course you know uh you
5:22
are in uh the in the game because I
5:25
always say the no bigger game
5:28
experiences you only can have through
5:31
the 2D monitor but uh in the BR you're
5:34
in the game actually that's a big
5:36
difference first and then other big
5:39
things is we always say that
5:41
it's our interaction got a non-br gaming
5:45
you just use
5:47
controller Mustang keyboard on top of
5:49
three on the new just uh the control
5:53
game character 3D monitor it's more like
5:57
a southern person view but uh in a beer
5:59
experiences you are going to be a game
6:02
character itself but then you you touch
6:04
object then you kill enemies mini stop
6:07
the two that's totally different
6:09
experience then uh we we know there's
6:13
already many BL gamers in the market and
6:17
then what they uh most expect is more
6:20
like a new experience you know flying
6:23
you know climbing but it's already
6:24
exists but uh they are certain people
6:26
one of the new experiences that's we are
6:28
trying to generate
6:31
so kind of like I guess a noob question
6:33
I'm one of those people who gets
6:35
destroyed in any competitive on live uh
6:38
right and then I think about trying to
6:41
do this in VR and I feel like my chances
6:43
are even smaller so how do you make this
6:46
work in VR that it's not disorienting
6:48
and then you understand where you're
6:50
going because like we mentioned there's
6:52
like 360 degree and you cannot be
6:54
attacked from all over yeah lots and
6:56
lots of options
6:58
um yeah I had a big meeting several
6:59
years ago with Jason Rubin
7:01
um from from meta and he said to me the
7:05
more options you can give a player the
7:07
better they'll be comfortable with so
7:09
for example movement Styles
7:11
um smooth turn is one way some people
7:13
have to play with smooth turn As you
7:15
move and look you kind of turn the way
7:16
you want to go I can't play that way at
7:18
all I need snap turn snap turning with
7:21
the flick you can decide how many
7:22
degrees of rotation you want to have and
7:25
you can set that anywhere from 15 to
7:27
1090 degrees on Snap so there that's
7:30
just one style movement the style of
7:32
locomotion Comfort settings we have a
7:35
massive amount of options in our game to
7:36
custom fit the player so that they feel
7:39
the most comfortable in the game as far
7:41
as the game itself it is a competitive
7:43
game so there is a learning curve
7:46
um but we do have a very extensive
7:48
tutorial and a practice mode to allow
7:50
people to feel very comfortable learning
7:53
all of the abilities and the things that
7:55
you do within the game before you jump
7:57
in
7:58
uh do you guys feel comfortable
8:00
launching the multiplayer title do you
8:02
feel like there's enough players on the
8:04
market right now that are craving
8:06
multiplayer experiences and you're not
8:07
going to end up with like a Lobby that's
8:09
half empty uh we we do uh you know with
8:13
like it's over 20 million
8:15
um devices for Quest plus we're
8:17
cross-platform so the idea of psvr2
8:22
um Quest as well as pcvr on Steam
8:25
um all of those players will be able to
8:26
enter the same Lobby and play together
8:28
do you use any particular like is there
8:32
any particular technological aspect to
8:34
like the networking and making sure that
8:37
it all connects or do you use some yeah
8:40
I mean we use a system called playfab
8:42
for our networking but there's a lot of
8:44
a lot of technical things to be able to
8:46
hook that up and make it run smoothly so
8:49
let's talk a little bit about from the
8:51
developers 10 point
8:52
when I think about
8:55
video games done for VR I think that
8:58
they are shorter in terms of session
9:01
they also have a little bit of a
9:04
different visual Style
9:05
and how those these particular elements
9:09
influence the cost of production and the
9:12
time of production is it as expensive to
9:14
build a VR title as you're building like
9:17
a game for computers or is it cheaper or
9:21
maybe it's faster like what are the
9:23
advantages if you're trying want to try
9:25
to do a VR thing
9:27
that's good to ask to dark small but uh
9:31
of course if it's maybe there are no
9:33
advantages that's also an answer but if
9:36
you try to make a high degree definition
9:37
content of course costs gonna be really
9:40
higher gotta you know every single beer
9:43
is a 3D you know and the 63 a 360
9:45
environment so you have to you know
9:47
touch generate everything that's why or
9:50
lower simple visual should be uh uh more
9:55
reasonable to develop that that uh data
9:58
sense of the development in appears so
10:00
far
10:01
how do you think
10:03
games like
10:05
Alex are made like what do you feel like
10:07
it costs to do a game like that you know
10:10
half right box yeah that's crazy you'd
10:13
remember the course it should be 100 or
10:16
200 million something
10:17
that we you can not do right now it's
10:20
not affordable to do you're talking
10:22
about cross-platform
10:24
um what kind of Technology do you use in
10:27
terms of rendering like do you use Unity
10:28
or unreal we use unreal unreal tell us a
10:32
little bit about how unreal Fields
10:34
itself in the VR
10:36
um the platform it adapts pretty well
10:39
we're not on unreal five we're still in
10:42
4.262 I believe
10:44
um we do have a VR version of unreal so
10:47
there's a small kind of plug-in
10:49
specifically for VR and then on top of
10:51
that we we add our own little bits of
10:53
flavor uh to to help with the game but
10:57
uh but I'm real it's done done well for
10:59
us we really we really feel like that's
11:01
where uh you know the game engines are
11:04
moving and a lot of our our story is
11:06
based on a game engine so it's kind of
11:08
funny we we use a lot of unreal you know
11:11
Meta Meta Meta exactly exactly so
11:16
in terms of like customers and when
11:19
you're going to Market how do you how do
11:21
you suggest approaching you know
11:23
Community Building how do you approach
11:25
kind of ramping up the Market to make
11:29
sure that the sales are started like day
11:31
one and so on what are the tools that
11:33
you could use to make sure that your
11:35
game especially a VR game is successful
11:37
down the line like do you work more with
11:40
platform do you work more with the
11:42
community do you need to have a large
11:44
marketing budget maybe a lower marketing
11:46
budget so
11:49
um we already launched two titles and um
11:53
we learned a lot and then current our
11:56
concept of the game development is more
11:58
like Community Driven but uh of course
12:01
we work with the platforms such as you
12:03
know mirror also Steam and the Sie for
12:07
the Precision be after but uh of course
12:10
we need their support but we are making
12:13
contents which we are selling to the
12:15
consumers so
12:16
current our approach is uh trying to
12:19
talk with interact with more communities
12:22
and then try to get more feedback and
12:24
then try to implement our game I think
12:26
that's the key and then that they have a
12:29
direct answer as well they want to do
12:31
when they want right that's why
12:34
um we use social media also Discord and
12:39
then and um
12:41
then uh the ability to community over
12:43
there then interact with them what do
12:46
you think about Platforms in general
12:48
like what is the platform to go to if
12:50
you want to be successful in VR is it uh
12:53
kind of meta stuff or is it a
12:54
PlayStation or do you need to because
12:57
you can't cover all of them like at
12:59
immediately right so you need to
13:01
prioritize so where do you think the
13:03
focus should be so the idea ideally if
13:07
you can you know launch the old
13:09
platforms semester 3 then we can reach
13:12
out all users that's why that's an ideal
13:15
case but uh uh as far as we know the the
13:18
steering majority of share the metacrist
13:21
has
13:22
probably a 60 to 80 70 that's why
13:28
um I think there if you target Quest 2
13:31
primarily it's uh
13:34
I think you get more chance right now
13:36
yeah and then they can expand the other
13:39
platforms do you get a lot of support
13:41
from you know meta and the platform
13:44
holders themselves are they
13:46
you know are they featuring you more do
13:49
they provide you some extra support and
13:51
other like technical questions or
13:52
something like that yeah our advantages
13:54
are so I leave the I live in their
13:58
boarding game which is a mirror Excel
14:00
headquarters there that's why I interact
14:03
with them very often and our Japan team
14:06
the majority of people from the Sie
14:09
that's why we talk with sap partner
14:11
that's why we we have a more like
14:14
Information Program
14:15
now that's our advantage
14:17
I was in uh epic headquarters like I
14:22
think it was like five years ago or six
14:23
years ago and
14:25
they were really heavy on showing their
14:28
VR stuff and they were using
14:30
uh VR basically in engine so you can
14:33
build you know spaces using AR goggles
14:36
and stuff like that I'm not sure this is
14:38
it was more like a gimmick it would have
14:40
kind of like showcasing the technology
14:41
but do you feel like
14:44
technology companies are really
14:46
embracing more VR right now like do you
14:49
feel like companies like Adobe you know
14:52
like
14:53
uh I think it I think it Ebbs and flows
14:56
I think sometimes there's a push and
14:58
then it goes and VR is is is trending up
15:01
but it's done this the whole way right
15:03
so it's just finding that time and space
15:06
for when there's enough adapt you know
15:09
early adopters that then fully Push It
15:12
Forward right I look at the same kind of
15:14
analogy of like you know
15:18
beta or VHS you know it's eventually
15:20
like one of those hits and then that
15:23
adaption moves and then you've you've
15:26
got everybody eventually will launch
15:27
into it so I see the VR space as
15:30
eventually how the mobile market was
15:33
circuit kind of 2005 2006 uh where it's
15:38
it's inevitable that will will will
15:40
really launch it's just exactly when you
15:43
mentioned while working on X8 you have
15:47
um kind of distributed team
15:49
what are you looking in when you're
15:52
trying to hire a developer like are you
15:54
just looking at their heart skills do
15:57
you want to people from particular
15:59
region because it's better for your
16:02
um you know yeah for for time zone for
16:05
for us on our team we
16:07
what works best for us is anything
16:10
that's not kind of in the Japan
16:12
Australia kind of Realm because we have
16:14
kind of a core set of hours usually from
16:17
about 7 30 in the morning Pacific time
16:20
uh all the way to to noon or one and
16:24
those are times across the globe where
16:25
most of the people are going to be
16:26
active and on and then the rest of that
16:28
time they fill in to kind of finish
16:30
their full day so we have some people
16:32
starting earlier in the day and and
16:34
they're ending their their you know
16:35
their day or their evening uh um in in
16:39
all the way in Eastern Europe all the
16:40
way to you know uh the Pacific coast is
16:44
there enough uh people right now who
16:46
know unreal and are also comfortable
16:48
with VR or do you feel like there is
16:51
like a need for more whatever it is it
16:53
is sometimes difficult it was very
16:55
difficult hiring the right kind of
16:57
networking because you're looking for
16:58
someone who has VR experience you're
17:00
looking for someone who's unreal
17:01
experience you're looking for someone
17:02
that has play Fab experience you know
17:03
there's that that that gets a lot
17:06
smaller as you kind of go through but
17:08
um you know we have a lot of really good
17:10
uh developers who have who have the ones
17:13
that didn't have a lot of VR experience
17:16
um have really learned the game and the
17:20
Dynamics and the and and and the design
17:22
part of it and and the reason for a lot
17:25
of the tactile experiences
17:27
um and then you know others um have have
17:30
been in it you know as long as I have
17:31
and and have been really fascinated
17:34
since all the way back to the the dk1
17:36
launch
17:38
okay so kind of like last question for
17:40
you is when when you're browsing through
17:43
pitches when you're browsing through
17:45
projects what are you looking for like
17:47
how do I sign a contract with you what
17:50
do you need from a developer
17:52
uh oh so sorry what if you're looking
17:55
for a new project what are you looking
17:58
for does it has to be a team with a
18:01
proven record does it have to be an
18:03
interest in IP does it have to be a
18:05
particular style or maybe a technical
18:07
quality that you're how do you know that
18:09
it's you want to work with this company
18:12
and make a game
18:13
cutting a company called The Vision is
18:17
try to create a metaboss it could be if
18:21
we can describe a little bit more detail
18:22
uh it should be kind of
18:26
RPG type of game so many people know
18:30
access at the same time but uh that was
18:33
we need a more like a server technology
18:35
but uh it's as I said as I said in the
18:37
city 60 environment it's hard to print
18:39
many people that we have to do also
18:43
um no
18:45
more like you know more
18:47
the major physics combat and shooting
18:51
mechanics many things you have to
18:52
implement it that's why we're making
18:54
solo fighting game shooter game also
18:57
um to um
18:59
make a beer market popular I think we
19:02
need existing eyepiece that's why we are
19:04
also talking so that's a main Peter we
19:07
are trying to implement again is VR
19:10
development Big in Japan currently
19:13
is it like a a lot of companies are
19:16
doing it or do you feel like it's still
19:17
like a smaller niche
19:20
uh it's getting bigger but I'm not
19:25
there are another mini uh PR specific
19:29
developers in Japan but it's expanding
19:31
right now but uh ideally the big console
19:35
gaming guys like you know Capcom economy
19:38
Sega if they those guys if they see us
19:40
and jump in the market the data time I
19:42
think is no more biggest expansion I
19:45
think Capcom was doing some work and
19:46
like with the Resident Evil series yeah
19:48
but we are they just provided IP they
19:52
didn't make it oh they didn't do it yeah
19:54
that type of cool project with the
19:55
mirror I feel like when you're looking
19:57
for developers one of the things
19:59
everybody's saying that you need to have
20:01
passion you need to have passion you
20:03
need to be very you know engaged and so
20:06
on
20:07
um do you feel the same way or maybe
20:09
there are some things like passion that
20:11
sometimes it can hurt but people get
20:13
burnt too often or they kind of
20:18
get sold in one idea and then you can
20:21
push them from it like and do something
20:23
else yeah I mean that comes a lot with
20:25
just design there is
20:28
there is a passion to make sure that the
20:30
game is not just a port from you know if
20:34
you were making OverWatch you were
20:36
making valorant or you know oh we're
20:37
just going to Port that into into the VR
20:40
space we really want a lot of
20:42
interactivity so we we call them uh
20:44
gvris Global VR interactives that we
20:47
have to have in the game so we're trying
20:49
to make sure that the things that you do
20:51
you're not just clicking buttons but
20:53
you're interacting or you're you're
20:55
enhancing or you're moving in different
20:57
ways and get given a lot of different
20:59
physicality however we do base the game
21:02
around being very
21:04
uh wait it's not room based so you can
21:06
turn and spin and take a step side and
21:08
leans right but you don't move
21:10
throughout the throughout the room uh
21:13
you'll need to and the reason behind
21:15
that is that our game lasts or anywhere
21:17
from 15 to 20 minutes for a full match
21:19
people play a couple matches in a row
21:21
and I still feel like in some ways
21:23
gamers are inherently lazy where they
21:25
want to be comfortable but still want to
21:27
play a lot of times so we keep that
21:31
a pivot point there and and you're
21:33
stationary but we do have a lot of
21:36
movement from your your Center standing
21:39
so a final question you have a lot of
21:42
this media ideas that there's a game
21:44
engine this kind of became Salient and
21:46
the he starts to stand something though
21:49
where does that come from and do you
21:52
feel like market right currently is
21:54
ready for kind of these kind of story
21:56
pitches so on because it sounds like
21:57
what you're saying is basically it's uh
22:00
it feels to me it's like there's like
22:02
this audience that first of all knows
22:04
what a game engine is and it's large
22:06
enough to you know get you enough
22:09
players I I think post uh epic fortnite
22:14
where unreal became its real own entity
22:18
and has grown very big I think the cat
22:20
like an average video gamer knows what a
22:23
game engine is these days
22:25
um and also the narrative on the game is
22:27
a pretty small part of the actual game
22:29
itself so the game mechanics themselves
22:31
with each hero having their own heroic
22:33
abilities and the casting system that
22:35
you use it's not really adhering to a
22:39
narrative is that narrative is a nice
22:40
way to kind of put it all together and
22:43
and make it fun and make it have some
22:45
sort of background sense thanks for
22:47
enjoying another episode of the 80 level
22:49
Roundtable podcast check out upcoming
22:53
episodes on the 80 level website at 80.
22:56
LV join our career site at 80.lv RFP
23:02
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[Music]